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Old 07-24-2000, 17:20   #51
Shred
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Well, all I got to do was fiddle with the pistol (a modified 6" STI Hunter-- rebarreled and had the funky Briley front-end), and some of the brass/loaded rounds. At that time there were only about a dozen or so loaded rounds in the country, so I didn't get to shoot any The 10 Ring. Customs had decided that the reloading dies were some sort of barrel and weren't letting them in.

I did talk to somebody that had shot it and he said recoil was pretty light (a .22 cal bull-barrel will do that)

The round looks even wierder and stubbier in person.

- Shred
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Old 07-27-2000, 12:00   #52
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Tazzzzzz,

Give us an update.......
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Old 07-28-2000, 18:07   #53
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Still looking into who is going to make the sabot. I got it designed, now i just got to get it made...

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Old 07-28-2000, 20:30   #54
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Well, what is required of the producer, what qualifications are needed to produce this item, injection molding, ???? poured molding? what kind of company should be looking for, we have many a hightec company in Southern Calif and we have a lot of resourses here on GT!!! Let us know, we want to help.......

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Old 07-29-2000, 11:55   #55
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Ultra precision, for one. If the sabot is going to "peel" away from the spinning bullet/sabot combo without touching the bullet and effecting it as it peels away the sabot is going to have to be absolutely precise and balanced all the way around. At those speeds, the slightest little difference in the thickness or shape of the plastic could cause the sabot to "bump" the bullet as it peels away.

Are there any CAD/CAM freaks among us?

Also, sooner or later the issue of money is going to come up when it comes to the actual mold making and molding of the sabot. Cost of plastic will be next to nothing, but the making of the mold and time on the molding equipment is going to have to cost something... i dont know how much of that we can get "donated" or traded for whatever. I would like to see this whole project done as a 10Ring group thing, non-profit, with the proceeds going to a worthy cause. Everyone involved could get credit for it, with marketing exposure for the companies that help. I think it would also bring alot more people into the world of versatile 10mm... and all the good stuff that goes with that! The 10 Ring

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Old 07-29-2000, 18:13   #56
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I'll help. But I want my name to be on the case headstamp.
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Old 07-30-2000, 05:37   #57
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Hey Tazz.
If you ever decide to get away from the sabot idea let me know. I have a buddy who is quite the machinist, he could easily cut a chamber reamer to your specifications. I know thats only one link in the chain, but it is one step closer.
Later
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Old 07-30-2000, 19:06   #58
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Hock, would that be ".223 Hock"? Nice to dream, huh?

Q-Ball, your offer is SO tantalizing! But, developing a necked down cartridge could be looked at as being a copy-cat... and might even bring patent infringement litigation swarming right out of the wood work... so, i think it might just be better to stick with the sabot... hey... can your buddy make sizing dies for the brass? The 10 Ring

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Old 07-31-2000, 12:57   #59
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any chance on getting a 10mm to .25 caliber sabot as well? (didnt think so)

any other thoughts on the 25 instead of .224?

Im concerned that most available .224 (rifle) bullets are too long (longer than similar wts. in 25 cal)....

seems that the 25 acp 50 grain fmj bullet would be cheap, have helacious penetration at the velocities attainable, and allow more powder (cause it is shorter) than a .224 bullet of the same weight.

does anyone make a round nose FMJ .224 (for the 218 bee or the hornet or ????) I guess it would be a 40 grainer for the 218 bee..... what kind of cost are they per hundred?

sorry for rambling, just curious.
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Old 07-31-2000, 14:34   #60
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Good point ( The 10 Ring) Rusty -
A .224 55gr FMJBT is around 0.740" long, and would need some plastic behind it, while a 180gr JHP is just about 0.640". But 25ACP bullets may be constructed lightly. (I don't have ANY to check.)

And the 40gr .224 bullets I've found are all designed for expansion, so that's a tradeoff as well.

And as you imply, the bullet nose shape, and the sabot shape, must play together well in order to get good feed reliability.

Also, rifling twist was mentioned before. I wonder if the sabots will take the Glock rifling well, with the accelleration they'll get. If so, then the 9.8" twist is fine. But many aftermarket barrels use 16" twist.

Details, details, details.
Lots of room for experimentation, unfortunately.
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Old 07-31-2000, 17:48   #61
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Rusty, with regards to rifling, I intend to use an aftermaket 6 or 7 inch barrel with conventional rifeling. The 1 in 9 twist works well in the AR's so it should be fine.

I agree that 25's would be better in some respects the reasons mentioned, but I want it in 223, the bullet selection is better and trajectory is flater in 223 and I can think of a few other reasons too! But purley as a wildcat, I think 25 would be a better choice. No patent infringements on a real 10 x 25.......heheehe.

My personal opinion is if we are to use sabots, we should be able to get a sabot maker to pony up for a 9mm to 223 sabot. That would sell to a broader market of 9 mm based guns. We could use the dillion 10 X 25 and buy stock barells and dies already on the market!!! Have you considered this taz? I know it would take a barrel change for 10mm but i think start up costs could be pushed on to a sabot maker, like one of the two that I refered to you eariler?
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Old 08-01-2000, 16:01   #62
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Yep, i've considered all this stuff... and i think that the .25 is a good idea too... it is also possible that the same sabot that is used for the .223 can be used for the .25, and there are alot of different .25 bullets out there both for rifle and pistol. If we can get one sabot to work for a range of bullet sizes we could really keep costs down. As for what a particular bullet will do, look at how each bullet considered performs at whatever the projected velocity will be. For instance, a .223 Rem starting 3240fps at the muzzle is going about 1610fps at 400yds, so, look to see how that bullet performs on prairie rats (for instance) at 400yds to get an idea how the same bullet will perform at around 25-50 yds in .223XR form. Estimated velocity for a 55grainer .223XR is about 1800-2100fps at the muzzle. It might go faster, but it is really hard to tell not knowing what is going to happen with pressures and powder volume limitations. What would really be cool is to use teflon sabots... The 10 RingThe 10 RingThe 10 Ring but that would for sure raise up the price a bit, but i dont know how much... Teflon is really expensive compared to other plastics, but... a sabot doesnt use much plastic/Teflon... The 10 Ring Also, the sabots could/should be silicon coated... Also, variations in sabot design is not that big a deal after the first design is done, as most of the work is already done.

Just remember, no experiment is a failure...

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The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

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Old 08-03-2000, 20:53   #63
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Have we been over the bullet setback thing and I just slept through it? I can't find my notes... The 10 Ring

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Old 08-04-2000, 02:18   #64
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Good question, Tamara. (And good to see you here again.)

One of the nice things about a straight-walled case is a natural resistance to setback. But I don't believe we've talked about the [plastic] sabot's weaker strength, where less friction will result. Perhaps a case cannelure just behind the sabot base (ala Federal 9mm and others) would help reduce setback.

If the design migrated to a necked case, such as based on the 9x25D, then the sabot could have one or more crimp grooves built in. Since headspace is on the shoulder, a small roll crimp should work.

Interesting thing about using a 9x25D - there would be more powder space when using long bullets. But I do wonder if the plastic would stand up to the powder flame on all sides.
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Old 08-04-2000, 18:49   #65
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Fred/Tamara,

If a 30 cal to .223 sabot can handle the heat, the 10mm to .223 should be ok, provide they are made of similar material!

I think a canelured sabot would be the way to go, because we can't have any bullet set back, no, no, no! (its easy to put in the mold and you dont have to use the canelure)

The small point of these rounds should help prevent them from nose diving squarly into the feed ramp to cause it in the first place, but it seems to me that even with the straight walled case the plastic would be more willing to set back then a jacketed bullet, so here again either on the case or better yet on the sabot, I would like see a canelure to be sure.

I prefer a fully kneced down brass case to roll crimp right on a .223 bullet myself, just like the Boz but If a 10mm sabot can be made I would shoot!
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Old 08-05-2000, 20:06   #66
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Yes, the sabot gets a canalure. It's also shaped at the front like a typical 10mm bullet for reliable feeding.

As for strength of the sabot, there are some really cool plastics out there which are very strong and fire resistant. Also, they are self-lubricating so that should help in the velocity realm as well as with cleaning.

The sabot is also designed to take the pressure of firing and transfer it all to moving the bullet.

The combination should allow us to use a very fast burning powder and help us to make up for some of that lost space in the powder room.

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The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.
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Old 08-06-2000, 12:04   #67
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Great Tazz, I have never seen a canilure on a sabot, so that is a nice improvement. All the ones I've seen do have tapered conical bullet like shapes but I think its more to decrease the weight (smaller weight disturbs the larger mass less) becasue the 223 tip is going to stick out so far out and be hitting the feed ramp and directing the bullets path long before the sabot comes into play.

Well, all I can say is I'm as ready as I was last year, more speed to you!!!!!


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Old 08-08-2000, 19:32   #68
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The way i got this thing designed, i dont know as if the tip will hit the feed ramp at all. The way the G29 is designed, the bullet almost goes straight into the chamber... and the way the sabot is designed, the sabot will hit the feed ramp way before the tip of the bullet hits it. If a bullet/gun combo is designed correctly, the tip of the bullet should NEVER touch anything. Any deformation of a the tip of a bullet, (obviously an issue with soft points), will throw accuracy right into the trash...

As for the canalure... i am not really sure that the sabot really needs one at all... as the sharp edge of the case will easily dig into the plastic of the sabot... but... i figure it might be nice to have an "edge" for the case mouth edge to butt up into as that might give a little more positive hold on any back pressure, and maybe it will lessen the need for as much crimp pressure.


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The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.
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Old 08-26-2000, 03:09   #69
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BTT...

Just noticed that this thread has been in constant rotation since 4/20. Can't just let it die!

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Old 08-26-2000, 05:30   #70
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you would have to dig it up yet again....

ye troublemaker
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Old 08-26-2000, 13:26   #71
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Trouble maker yea, but, SO good at it! The 10 Ring

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The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.
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Old 09-08-2000, 08:28   #72
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Yes! The rumors are TRUE! I found a source to get the 223XR sabot made just for us!! We are now waiting on a price from them.......... AAAAK!! The waiting is killing me! The 10 Ring I also have a source to load them commercially..... The 10 Ring

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The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.
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Old 09-08-2000, 09:27   #73
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Load them commercially? That may be expensive, can we buy the sabots and load our own? Hey, then we'll have the 223XR short loaded in a 40 case, hmm. Imagine a 40 carbine with a Schere 29rd mag loaded with 223XR sabots! Then the 223XR Super loaded in a 40 Super case, wow. It'll be like a handheld semi-auto 22-250. Then we can put on one of those funky carbine uppers and make a real blaster. This is great!

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Old 09-08-2000, 16:55   #74
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Hey Taz ... did you leave the gate open again ??? Now we have to chase those dawgs out again !!!

They get so envious of our good caliber !
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Old 09-09-2000, 09:45   #75
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Perhaps Tazz's source can put together some rock salt loads in 10mm to help control the mutts. The 10 Ring

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