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Old 10-11-2006, 19:29   #26
Blitzer
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Glad to hear you and yours are OK!

Maybe you would consider getting your wife trained and her own CCW? Having backup would be nice.
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Old 10-12-2006, 12:18   #27
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I agree that it was fortunate for both of you that you didn't shoot him or brandish your weapon. If you shot him in self defense, the authorities wouldn't necessarily be on your side since your firearm gave you a decisive edge over his bat...although having an open carry holster would have cooled his jets, it could also been misconstrued as threatening him (although I'm sure witnesses would have been on your side -who needs the hassle right?)

I would have done the same thing and walked away...unless I had something like a taser or something.
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Old 10-13-2006, 18:59   #28
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Maybe he was hungry and you were taking too long at the drive thru. You should've fed him his own freakin' bat.
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Old 10-13-2006, 19:22   #29
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i think you did good to.
if your still at the cabin make shore you keep a eye out this guy sounds like a bad one.
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Old 10-13-2006, 19:40   #30
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Another take on the subject at hand...

Any time you get out of a situation alive and in one piece you are a winner. However, were this to have happened to me I would have drawn on him and given him one of four choices as my spouse dialed 911: a) drop the bat and assume a face down position in the dirt while waiting for the police; b) choose to continue advancing on an armed individual and receive the consequences of a very stupid decision; c) continue to stand there in a mexican stand-off while the police arrive to resolve his problem; or d) get back in his vehicle and leave with us giving the play-by-play to the police dispatcher.

As a CCW instructor here in KY, I can assure you that a bat in the hands of an angry person approaching you constitutes grounds for shooting in self-defense. Would I want to do it? No, but that does not mean that I will not, and I doubt that I would just turn and try to leave as he might graduate from the bat to a firearm and take a more advantageous moment to attack me later. He chose the time and place, he chose his actions. He chooses his own consequences.

Remember to stay calm, understand that shooting is the last resort and making quick mental decisions that you can live with...because you will have to regardless. Again, you got out alive and in one piece...that makes you a winner in this situation. The next situation could be far worse and unfold a lot faster giving you less time to decide. When he showed up with you at the first stop, that was your time to arm yourself if you were not already carrying.

Just my $0.02 of typing skills....
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Old 10-14-2006, 12:12   #31
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"As a CCW instructor here in KY, I can assure you that a bat in the hands of an angry person approaching you constitutes grounds for shooting in self-defense."

Does this fall under disparity of force? I'm not questioning your knowledge of local laws (we do live in different locales.) Just want to look further into the situation. Here in the Philippines I doubt that shooting a guy with a bat will fall under self-defense.

Then again, maybe it's all relative. I'm 5"10, 180lbs and have pretty good martial arts training. It could be proven that I could have means and skills to disarm the guy and non-lethally subdue him. Now if I were a 90 pound high-school girl it would be a whole different story. He, the perp, could also have been 6"5 with a .500 batting average in which case my martial arts skills would have been useless.

Wow. I guess I answered my own question then. It's all a matter of no-BS threat asessment. Know what you and your opponent are capable of then make a quick decision.

Again, I would have fed him his bat through whatever orifice was most convenient.
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Old 10-14-2006, 14:00   #32
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First a few statutory quotes
"CHAPTER 192 Legislative Research Commission
(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to behas no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a felony involving the use of force."

"Section 3. KRS 503.050:
(1) The use of physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable when the defendant believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by the other person.
(2).The use of deadly physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable under subsection (1) only when the defendant believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against death, serious physical injury, kidnapping,[ or] sexual intercourse compelled by force or threat, felony involving the use of force, orunder those circumstances permitted pursuant to Section 2 of this Act."

"SECTION 6. A NEW SECTION OF KRS CHAPTER 503 IS CREATED TO READ AS FOLLOWS:
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in Section 2 of this Act and in KRS 503.050, 503.070, and 503.080 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom the force was used is a peace officer, as defined in KRS 446.010,who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law, or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a peace officer. As used in this subsection, the term "criminal prosecution" includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1) of this section, but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney's fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1)."

My contention is that an angry individual approaching me with a baseball bat could very well indeed inflict serious bodily harm or death, thus the use of "deadly physical force" as described herein would not only be justified, but most likely prudent in many instances. Just as an LEO does not fire his weapon every time it is drawn, neither do I have to fire. As the NRA states, "the mere presence of a firearm is enough to stop criminal activity" (or something thereabouts). Thus the four choices as I listed them above.

You will note that in KY we ARE NOT required to attempt to flee from our attacker, thus the urgency to get back into an vehicle and flee is a minor concern. Tactically is could be a bad mistake if the offender then obtains and uses a firearm against you as you are leaving and defenseless. The law also specifically states that one cannot be arrested or held after a shooting unless it is deemed by the police to have been outside the realm of defense, or deemed excessive (again a baseball bat ups the ante). If the police do arrest and or detain they can be sued and held liable in court.

The take home message? If a 98lb person attacks me with their fists I will have a difficult time sustaining an arguement for the need of "deadly physical force" (ie shooting them), but if someone my size attacks me with his fists and has me down and I am getting the worst of the fight, I can graduate to "deadly physical force". Any one attacking with any kind of object would very likely fall into the realm of "deadly physical force" and subject themselves to the possibility of being shot here in KY...including a 98lb weakling with a baseball bat. Oh, and as you will notice, the family, heirs, friends, etc cannot sustain a civil lawsuit against the defender after the use of ANY force for defensive purposes, or if a case goes to trial and a jury agrees witht he defendant that he acted according to the statute, all expenses and so forth will be paid by the plaintiff, thus essentially guaranteeing that most attorneys will look twice at the case before even filing.

Y'all come on to Kentucky! We have plenty of room...and a few good jobs left!
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Last edited by KyInvestigator; 10-14-2006 at 20:44..
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Old 10-14-2006, 17:34   #33
horge
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*wince*

Ladies and gentlemen, pay close attention to the language and
apparent organization used in Kentucky's laws/statutes.
THAT is how to draft such stuff.

It's a painful exercise, but try comparing it to the drunken babble
that constitutes Philippine Firearms Law... and then consider the
disparity between the drivel that passes for law and what is actually
enforced and upheld on the street, in the courts and through the
course of firearm registration and licensing.

Thanks for the quotes, KyInvestigator!
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Old 10-14-2006, 18:29   #34
mc_oliver
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Quote:
Originally posted by horge
It's a painful exercise, but try comparing it to the drunken babble
that constitutes Philippine Firearms Law...
Hey horge, how many more decades do you think we'll have to wait until they sober up?

Quote:
You will note that in KY we ARE NOT required to attempt to flee from our attacker, thus the urgency to get back into an vehicle and flee is a minor concern.
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Old 10-14-2006, 20:13   #35
PMMA97
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Quote:
Originally posted by horge

the drunken babble that constitutes Philippine Firearms Law...
What we have are "guidelines" which are very prone to misinterpretations in favor of whoever has more muscle.

Kawawang Pinoy.
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Old 10-14-2006, 20:55   #36
bikethief
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Is open carry legal in KY? If our laws were this clear cut and definitive, the "AREGLO" system would become obsolete. Crime, I believe, would also take a dip because criminals would realize that the law offers nothing in their defense.

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Old 10-17-2006, 05:55   #37
Allegra
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Quote:
Originally posted by bikethief
Is open carry legal in KY? If our laws were this clear cut and definitive, the "AREGLO" system would become obsolete. Crime, I believe, would also take a dip because criminals would realize that the law offers nothing in their defense.

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Dang this is an old thread, ang tino pa ng mga posts ko

If you've sp[ent any time sa korte , magiisip ka if our court system is a joke
Hospitals,morgues, and courts have something in common for me
Tumatayo balahibo o when I'm in the viscinity

Pero I love corporate lawyers
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Old 10-17-2006, 08:06   #38
KyInvestigator
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Yes, indeed, Kentucky is an open carry state. That being said, I have been told that you might attract some LEO eyes in Louisville, and Lexington so one should be ready to be stopped and questioned about your purposes in a specific area, etc. This practice would not be illegal or unreasonable if the officer has reason to suspect problems or potential problems.

The problem is that many of the open carry crowd just seem to think that they should never be questioned about what they are doing...because in their eyes they are doing nothing wrong. Open carry only invites problems which is why I always carry concealed. The only time I have a "gun in the open" is when I am putting on my jacket getting out of my vehicle (when wearing suits I do not drive with my jacket on).

Hope this helps.
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Old 10-17-2006, 23:10   #39
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WOW! 7 firearms attack with a baseball bat. And the guy lives with a chance to repeat the same rage to other person? True you don't need a firearms for this. Situation awareness and a call to 911, give the police the car plate#, description of the person, tell your side of story and look for witnesses.
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