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Old 04-08-2014, 19:57   #1
Gunruner1917
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A couple more 800X loads and results

Gun used is a new Glock 20SF all box stock. No modifications at all. I've been shooting 9gr of 800X under a 180gr Hornady XTP with CCI 300 LPP and an overall length of 1.259". Accurate and around 1200fps+-. I decided to go up the grains of 800X keeping everything else the same. Barnd new Starline brass cases were used. These loads were measured and thrown low and trickled up to the exact weight on a calibrated scale. I went with 9.2 and 9.4 grains today. All brass was recovered and mic'ed and showed no signs of pressure or abnormal flattening of the primers for either 9.2 or 9.4. None of the dreaded Glock smiles. The 9.2 grain load delivered fine 2-3" 25m groups when I did my part. The brass fell within a foot of each other. The 9.4 grain load didn't perform as well and the grouping was 6" plus. The brass was thrown to a much different area and spread out. Conclusions for me..... the speed of the 9.4gr loading with these components is beyond what my gun will stabilize for good shooting accuracy. The 9.2 grain load shoots as accurate as the 9.0 and gives more velocity and energy so for now I will use it for my woods carry.
I did learn that the 9.4gr load with these components(aside from the primer selection) is supposed to be the Underwood loading at 1300fps. I found the factory stock Glock 20sf shot it fine without any problems or primer pressure signs, frame battering or brass damage.
Just my loadings with my gun....your results may be different with your components and your gun.
Shoot safe and often folks...............Mike
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Old 04-09-2014, 07:53   #2
Arnold Kuhl
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Originally Posted by Gunruner1917 View Post
Gun used is a new Glock 20SF all box stock. No modifications at all. I've been shooting 9gr of 800X under a 180gr Hornady XTP with CCI 300 LPP and an overall length of 1.259". Accurate and around 1200fps+-. I decided to go up the grains of 800X keeping everything else the same. Barnd new Starline brass cases were used. These loads were measured and thrown low and trickled up to the exact weight on a calibrated scale. I went with 9.2 and 9.4 grains today. All brass was recovered and mic'ed and showed no signs of pressure or abnormal flattening of the primers for either 9.2 or 9.4. None of the dreaded Glock smiles. The 9.2 grain load delivered fine 2-3" 25m groups when I did my part. The brass fell within a foot of each other. The 9.4 grain load didn't perform as well and the grouping was 6" plus. The brass was thrown to a much different area and spread out. Conclusions for me..... the speed of the 9.4gr loading with these components is beyond what my gun will stabilize for good shooting accuracy. The 9.2 grain load shoots as accurate as the 9.0 and gives more velocity and energy so for now I will use it for my woods carry.
I did learn that the 9.4gr load with these components(aside from the primer selection) is supposed to be the Underwood loading at 1300fps. I found the factory stock Glock 20sf shot it fine without any problems or primer pressure signs, frame battering or brass damage.
Just my loadings with my gun....your results may be different with your components and your gun.
Shoot safe and often folks...............Mike
Thanks for the info. Just starting out with reloading the 10mm. The Underwood 180gr. FMJ's I've put thru my Gen4 20 turned out very well, too. Didn't know they're loaded up with 9.4gr. of 800x. I had absolutely no signs of any irregularities with my spent brass; most of the brass slipped right back into my stock bbl. Didn't expect that.

The 10mm looks like it'll be a lot of fun, with appropriate care applied in reloading and shooting, of course.

AK
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Old 04-09-2014, 08:26   #3
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Thanks for posting this. I'm working up the exact same load in my G4 G20. 9.0gr 800X under 180 XTP chronos at ~1200 fps. When I increased the charge to 9.5, I started having FTFs, ejection was erratic, and the slide velocity felt way too fast. The OEM recoil assembly seems to be too soft for this load.

I have a 22lb assembly and a 24lb spring on order at Glockmeister, but there's some delay in delivery.

An "interesting" thing that happened during this range session was that the laser on my brand new Surefire X400U stopped working . I'm waiting on a warranty repair authorization...

Please keep us updated on your load development. I'll post here when I get the stiffer RSA installed.
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Old 04-10-2014, 07:54   #4
Arnold Kuhl
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Thanks for posting this. I'm working up the exact same load in my G4 G20. 9.0gr 800X under 180 XTP chronos at ~1200 fps. When I increased the charge to 9.5, I started having FTFs, ejection was erratic, and the slide velocity felt way too fast. The OEM recoil assembly seems to be too soft for this load.

I have a 22lb assembly and a 24lb spring on order at Glockmeister, but there's some delay in delivery.

An "interesting" thing that happened during this range session was that the laser on my brand new Surefire X400U stopped working . I'm waiting on a warranty repair authorization...

Please keep us updated on your load development. I'll post here when I get the stiffer RSA installed.
The Gen4 G20's come with the captive dual-spring RSA. I was under the impression that you cannot upgrade or downgrade the stock RSA. I also thought that the captive RSA in the Gen 4 model can handle any load, except extra-wimpy bunny-fart loads.

Am I mistaken?

AK

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Old 04-10-2014, 08:54   #5
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AK--Glockmeister has a G4 rod that takes imsi springs. Mine hasn't showed up yet...
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Old 04-10-2014, 10:33   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold Kuhl View Post
The Gen4 G20's come with the captive dual-spring RSA. I was under the impression that you cannot upgrade or downgrade the stock RSA. I also thought that the captive RSA in the Gen 4 model can handle any load, except extra-wimpy bunny-fart loads.

Am I mistaken?

AK
As I understand, there are a few companies (probably LW or Rockyourglock or one of the other big ones) that sell a G4 RSA Adaptor nut that sits on the front of the RSA that allows it to fit into the G4 RSA hole in the G4 slide.
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Old 04-10-2014, 12:42   #7
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OK. But why would you need such an RSA for your Gen4? The OEM RSA's seem to handle almost all loads just fine, to my knowledge, except for very weak loads.

Please explain why one would need any other RSA for the Gen4?

Thanks,
AK
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Old 04-10-2014, 13:50   #8
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Apparently the G4 OEM RSA isn't stiff enough for my heavier loads. Not sure what else to say until I get the 22 and 24 lb imsi springs and compare.
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Old 04-10-2014, 14:00   #9
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Originally Posted by Arnold Kuhl View Post
OK. But why would you need such an RSA for your Gen4? The OEM RSA's seem to handle almost all loads just fine, to my knowledge, except for very weak loads.

Please explain why one would need any other RSA for the Gen4?

Thanks,
AK
In general I agree although if you ever wish to tune your pistol, the information is good to know.
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Old 04-11-2014, 22:36   #10
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There really has to be a difference in what our scales our showing. I've gone to 8.7 gr and have primers dropping out on the floor, new Starline brass basically destroyed and bullets going into the target sideways. Flattened primers is a given. There is no way we're actually loading the same loads.

An interesting experiment would be to share actual charges using gelatin capsules or something to have them weighed..I weigh your 9.2 gr loads, you weigh my 8.7 gr loads. That would be interesting to see just how out of whack these loads are.

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Old 04-11-2014, 22:45   #11
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There really has to be a difference in what our scales our showing. I've gone to 8.7 gr and have primers dropping out on the floor, new Starline brass basically destroyed and bullets going into the target sideways. Flattened primers is a given. There is no way we're actually loading the same loads.

An interesting experiment would be to share actual charges using gelatin capsules or something to have them weighed..I weigh your 9.2 gr loads, you weigh my 8.7 gr loads. That would be interesting to see just how out of whack these loads are.

Or check weights...


By the way, I have had similar results where pressure signs show up big time by 9.1 grains under a 180. Mid 9s is scary. I hand weigh with scale verified with check weights. I am comfortable at 8.5 grains under a 180, but not much more.
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Old 04-11-2014, 23:31   #12
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It is very strange, I have loaded to 10.0gr of 800x under 180gr PD FMJ with no smiles, no blown primers, nada.


If you go to the IMR sticky under the 10mm reloading forums, I think you will find a lot of guys who have loaded well into the 9's and 10's with 800x and 180gr jacketed and not seen the results you guys have gotten.


I use an RCBS 1010 beam scale, use check weights and hand weigh every single 800x charge.


Were either of you using magnum primers?
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Old 04-12-2014, 07:32   #13
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Do not use magnum primers with 800X. The 800x is very easy to ignite and if you look at it and compare it to Unique it looks the same. Unique will go nuts with magnum primers. Those big flakes of nitrocellulose light off easily. I read a lot of postings about folks having problems with 800X and magnum primers. I decided against magnum primers way back in my .41 magnum days. The standard primers always gave better accuracy and less pressure signs.
Now I will say again. My scale has been used for 30 years. It's a beam scale and can be adjusted in any weight. I have a set of weights that I calibrate it with. It is always spot on. I have loaded up 180grXTP's over 9.4gr of 800X and using Starline brass with CCI 300 primers. I have mic'ed my brass from 8.7gr thru the 9.4 fired loadings and they are identical. Primers show minimal flattening in the center,not the pan flat of the primers from my .41 magnums. My gun is relatively new production and I get no signs of the web not being supported(glock smiles). If you are getting pressure signs in your gun from 800X at 8.7 and up then I would find out why..........use another calibrated scale, inspect the powder for contamination, change primers, adjust bullet seating depth. My loads work, except the 9.4 loading doesn't stabilize the 180XTP like the slower loadings in the factory stock 20sf. I found the 9.2gr loading to be maximum in my gun for accuracy. I haven't reached the maximum pressure loading for my formula but there appears no need as the accuracy deteriorates beyond 9.2gr of 800X.
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Old 04-12-2014, 07:58   #14
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I have a beam scale that my wife's step-father gave me about 26 years ago. It's an "Ohaus" brand, which I doubt they even make anymore. It is spot-on; also has weights for calibration.

Have not tried 800x, yet. Still have a lot of PP, Unique, 231, AA#9, left from years past. Powder has gone up in price at least 50% in the last few years; don't want to spend money on more, but am still somewhat eager to try the 800x everyone talks about.

BTW, the Underwood 180gr. FMJ's I shot through my almost-new stock Gen4 G20 showed no signed of over-pressure in any way. Real happy about that.

Regards,
AK

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Old 04-12-2014, 11:37   #15
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It is very strange, I have loaded to 10.0gr of 800x under 180gr PD FMJ with no smiles, no blown primers, nada.


If you go to the IMR sticky under the 10mm reloading forums, I think you will find a lot of guys who have loaded well into the 9's and 10's with 800x and 180gr jacketed and not seen the results you guys have gotten.


I use an RCBS 1010 beam scale, use check weights and hand weigh every single 800x charge.


Were either of you using magnum primers?
505 scale. Check weights. Standard primer. Difference might be XTPs vs FMJs. XTPs seem to run at higher pressure with all that bearing surface and long profile. I am also not ruling out the lot of powder that I did my testing with. I did a period of workups a while back. I think the same lot. I have used other lots, but not for hot workups. Been burning it up as I feel up for painstakingly hand weighing blasting ammo. I find it interesting how mixed the results have been with Underwood ammo when they used 800-x. Lots of issues posted throughout the web. Some guys have no issues. Others smiling bigtime and popping primers.

I may try some workups again with this other lot of powder I have to see if I get different results. Mine certainly are not typical.
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Old 04-12-2014, 11:39   #16
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I have a beam scale that my wife's step-father gave me about 26 years ago. It's an "Ohaus" brand, which I doubt they even make anymore. It is spot-on; also has weights for calibration.

Have not tried 800x, yet. Still have a lot of PP, Unique, 231, AA#9, left from years past. Powder has gone up in price at least 50% in the last few years; don't want to spend money on more, but am still somewhat eager to try the 800x everyone talks about.

BTW, the Underwood 180gr. FMJ's I shot through my almost-new Gen4 G20 showed no signed of over-pressure in any way. Real happy about that.

Regards,
AK
The Underwood 180's should be loaded with 9.4gr of 800X but use what appears to be Winchester LP primers(copper colored). Powder on disassemble of the cartridge is identical to 800X and weighs 9.4gr.
The 800X is not a volume powder for progressive presses. I have to throw the charges low and trickle up. They throw all over the place from a measure. If you try 800X it is a slow process and you must be careful not to try just measuring charges. All must be weighed. The powder works for my loads and I see no reason to go anywhere else for the 180grXTP's unless I can't get 800X. I will try Winchester primers when I can pick some up as I use the CCI 300's from Walmart.
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Old 04-12-2014, 13:22   #17
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505 scale. Check weights. Standard primer. Difference might be XTPs vs FMJs. XTPs seem to run at higher pressure with all that bearing surface and long profile. I am also not ruling out the lot of powder that I did my testing with. I did a period of workups a while back. I think the same lot. I have used other lots, but not for hot workups. Been burning it up as I feel up for painstakingly hand weighing blasting ammo. I find it interesting how mixed the results have been with Underwood ammo when they used 800-x. Lots of issues posted throughout the web. Some guys have no issues. Others smiling bigtime and popping primers.

I may try some workups again with this other lot of powder I have to see if I get different results. Mine certainly are not typical.

Being you are not alone in your experience, kind of rules out a gun thing.


I thought maybe you were using magnum primers, or some other significant difference from my loads. I have heard a lot of theories on magnum primers and 800x, but a lot of guys on these threads use both style of primer (and Winchester in between) with no ill effects.


The even stranger element is when I load 800x to a given velocity, it is generally easier on the brass than even slower powders like N105, #9, etc., right up to the smile stage.


A real head scratcher.
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Old 04-12-2014, 19:09   #18
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I have gone to 10.8 gr 800x under a 180 gr xtp. With a cci 300 primer. I also tried working up with mag primers. Bad idea. Pressure signs before even hitting book max. My strongest load I have ever made and hunted with was a 184gr tc cast with 11.2 gr 800x. Was doing over 1600fps in my 6in longslide. No pressure signs. Cast always has lower pressure.

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Old 04-12-2014, 19:22   #19
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Regarding mag primers .... I won't even use them unless I have nothing else to use (primer shortage days). They increase pressure in every instance I've experienced or even read about. Usually not much performance to be gained and certainly nothing worth the pressure ... with ANY 10mm powder, fast or slow. JMHO
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Old 04-12-2014, 21:00   #20
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Being you are not alone in your experience, kind of rules out a gun thing.


I thought maybe you were using magnum primers, or some other significant difference from my loads. I have heard a lot of theories on magnum primers and 800x, but a lot of guys on these threads use both style of primer (and Winchester in between) with no ill effects.


The even stranger element is when I load 800x to a given velocity, it is generally easier on the brass than even slower powders like N105, #9, etc., right up to the smile stage.


A real head scratcher.

Good take. The one time I did workup with 800-X and a mag primer was under 200 gr WFNGCs. At 8.0 grains there seemed to be a lot of wear-and-tear on the brass. Switching to a CCI 300, I was able to work up to 8.5 gr with better looking brass and greater velocities (somewhere around 1160 fps).


The head-scratcher part is what keeps me from feeling too terribly confident when plying the upper limits of 800-X. One exception: 800-X absolutely spanks 135 gr Nosler JHPs - for me. Again, this is a situation where some guys get pressure problems at a full 2 grains less than what I worked up to. I was WAY above even Underwood. No issues with brass. Then I workup 200 grainers and get somewhat of 'tweener results. Good, but not Accurate 9 good. Then 180s get spooky. Middle weight bullets run very good. I don't get it.


I have about talked myself into working up 180s again with this last pound I have on my bench. I might take the opportunity to workup a 200 gr WFNGC load for the 40 S&W while I'm at it. My wife carries a 40 when we're in the mountains.
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Old 04-14-2014, 14:48   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeeWilly View Post
It is very strange, I have loaded to 10.0gr of 800x under 180gr PD FMJ with no smiles, no blown primers, nada.


If you go to the IMR sticky under the 10mm reloading forums, I think you will find a lot of guys who have loaded well into the 9's and 10's with 800x and 180gr jacketed and not seen the results you guys have gotten.


I use an RCBS 1010 beam scale, use check weights and hand weigh every single 800x charge.


Were either of you using magnum primers?
I've also gone up to 10.0gr 800X under a 180gr XTP in a fully supported barrel with CCI300's w/ OAL 1.26" and NEVER a problem with bulges, smiles or primer issues and only VERY consistent velocities and SD's. I've not gone higher (why bother since I was getting close to 1400fps from a 6") but would have to do a separate workup for a stock G20 barrel, for example.

FWIW, I always used an RCBS 505 scale with RCBS check weights, trickling and weighing every charge.

Also, just FYI, the OHaus scales are now RCBS. Same company now as I understand it.
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Old 04-14-2014, 16:05   #22
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..Also, just FYI, the OHaus scales are now RCBS. Same company now as I understand it.

I think Ohaus may have always been the supplier to RCBS (along with Dillon, at least for the Eliminator). As best as I can tell the only difference is the customer support. When you buy from RCBS you get a bullet proof CS experience. I broke my 1010 beam (totally my fault and told them so), RCBS replaced the whole scale including shipping to me.


Sorry for the hijack...
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Old 04-14-2014, 19:24   #23
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I think Ohaus may have always been the supplier to RCBS (along with Dillon, at least for the Eliminator). As best as I can tell the only difference is the customer support. When you buy from RCBS you get a bullet proof CS experience. I broke my 1010 beam (totally my fault and told them so), RCBS replaced the whole scale including shipping to me.


Sorry for the hijack...
Yes you are correct. I was in a hurry when I posted my response so I messed up the info. Thank you sir
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Old 04-15-2014, 07:25   #24
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All I know is that my Ohaus beam scale is at least 25 years old, has been used by me for at least 20 years, and still is accurate beyond any expectations. No reason for me to shell out for a new electronic digital scale; I'll use this one till I croak. Yes, measuring each charge manually is a pain in the arse, but I don't shoot volumes anyway. What else have I got to do? (NEVER have loaded a bad round yet).

Regards,
AK
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Old 04-15-2014, 22:07   #25
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Yeah I've never loaded with magnum primers, have NEVER drop-weighed 800X, and have measured every single load rather painstakingly on what I consider to be a precision digital scale calibrated. I mean, the first time I went out to the bench and tried to throw 800X it was a complete joke--and yeah I actually chuckled because someone told me don't do it. I of course didn't believe him and had to see it for myself. Lesson learned.

In any case, there is no way on earth with my current setup I could possibly load any where near 9 gr under a 180 of any kind any not totally extrude that brass out through the firing pin hole like a wad of pasta.

What I can say without question is that, when this 800X is gone, it's freeking gone. What an incredible waste of my time. In fact, I think I have 6 or 7 lbs left and I'm thinking I may not even waste my time loading it at all. It has produced the most inconsistent results of anything I've ever loaded. Does real nice with moderate loads, but anything does real nice with moderate loads. I'm thinking I can load Clays in 10mm in moderate loads and see results just as good.

It's a shame because 800X is the ONLY propellant I've loaded in 10mm that comes very close to filling the case at max loads. Just about everything else is at 50% or so...40SW levels of volume. A real shame.

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