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Old 09-29-2004, 15:15   #61
bethann
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Quote:
Originally posted by scowan007
but I have read a lot of complaints from GSD people that the AKC has ruined the breed and turned a good working dog into a useless show dog. Apparently it is tough to find GSDs in the states that are "true" to the breed. I hope the experts see this and chime in!
All you have to do is to ask questions from breeders. There are American show lines that are bred for conformation shows, and there are German bred dogs, both working and show lines. In Germany even the show dogs must have a working title and pass a temperament test in order to be bred. The working dogs are sometimes very high drive and too much dog for the average person unless you take the time to work with the dog.
There will always be fighting between the working lines and the american show lines. The working people say that the american dog has been ruined and can no longer work. They also say that all american bred dogs have bad hips and bad temperaments. I have owned both and that used to be true but not anymore. The american breeders have made so much progress in the past 10 years or so as far as improving the hip status, temperaments, working ability, etc. 15 years ago when I had a couple of import GSD's and worked them in Schutzhund, I said that I would never own an American bred GSD. Now, I think differently. As far as a dog for competition or police work I do think that the German dog is the better dog, but for a pet that only needs to "bark" and give a warning, any GSD from a breeder who shows (either in conformation shows, obedience or shutzhund) would do the job.
Of course, if your dog is of a breed that is known for being defensive, any large breed dog will do. The sheer size of most breeds is enough of a deterant that the dog really doesn't need to do anything more.
But, any small breed can do the same. Burglers dont' want to break into a house that has a dog, period. They want to get in and out without being noticed. Even a toy breed does that job very well.
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Old 09-29-2004, 20:41   #62
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sorry...for "baby" like temperment and "Manson" like properties for coverage a "Boer Boel"...is the ticket 100%...period.
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Old 09-30-2004, 00:12   #63
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Well said, bethann. However, there is a BIG difference between a dog that barks at intruders and a defensive dog (one who will go into a fight to protect you). The later is extraordinarily rare. Not only does a personal protection dog require the right temperament (i.e. fight drive)but it also requires very specialized training. There is NOT a single American-line or -bred dog that will rise to that occasion. This is the reason that the kennels who train PSD's ALWAYS look to European countries like Germany, Belgium, and the Czech Rep. for their working prospects. Schutzhund and PSD/personal protection training is also very different. As bethann said, the true working dogs are well beyond the abilities of most dog-owners and the potential liability is enormous. Your dog should only be considered an alarm. Your Glock has the teeth.
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Old 09-30-2004, 06:38   #64
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yep

Good point. same stands for Africa
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Old 10-01-2004, 22:33   #65
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Break in...

Maybe a good security system and a Glock? I have two fairly aggressive dogs, a Boxer/Pit and a Lab/Mastif. Still, I rely on electronics and a hot Glock! Redundancy is good! ;+
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Old 10-01-2004, 22:56   #66
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I have a mid sized mutt that has good hearing and is territorially protective. Mom was black and yellow lab, Dad was GSD Rott and Chow. Mostly the lab and gsd show, but the Chow spotted tongue and rott goofiness are definately there.

I got lucky, he was a surprise B-day present.
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Old 10-03-2004, 10:26   #67
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Wellllllll....another vote for Dachshunds. I have two and they are my trained and certified service animals. I have a hearing impairment and they are very well trained. Attention other Doxie parents: I realize that a "trained Dachshund" is an oxymoron. LOL.
Here's a picture of mine. At least one of them is with me all the time and by federal law can go ANYWHERE I go.;j

Minnie is the Black and Tan and Digit on the right. Hence my online handle "digitspaw".
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Old 10-03-2004, 17:12   #68
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They are gorgeous! But you're right, "trained" may not be exactly the right word when talking about Doxies. They have a mind of their own.

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Old 10-03-2004, 17:19   #69
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If you live in the country put a few geese on your property. They will hear intruders and sound the alarm before dogs every time. They make enough of a racket when this happens to alert you.
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Old 10-04-2004, 05:03   #70
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See avatar....'nuff said.
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Old 10-05-2004, 16:31   #71
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one for the Doberman.......

I have to vote for the Dobe. I will put my two against a BG, day or especially at night. I travel frequently for work and although my wife has her CCW, I completely trust the dogs will protect her and the child. They were both tactically trained at Baden in NY. I see no scenario where an intruder gets past both dogs. They are able to "roam" the house at night and during the day.

Interesting link ranking security dogs based on agrressiveness, resistance to counterattack, courage, etc.

http://www.petrix.com/dogsec/topsec.html


Here is one on the front porch.....

Last edited by smithkid1974; 10-05-2004 at 16:36..
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Old 10-06-2004, 07:14   #72
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Re: one for the Doberman.......

[QUOTE]Originally posted by smithkid1974
[B]

Interesting link ranking security dogs based on agrressiveness, resistance to counterattack, courage, etc.

http://www.petrix.com/dogsec/topsec.html

;z RRRiiiggghhhttt.....who made that list? Ironic that the two or three breeds most used in police/military K9 didn't even make the top 5. Also ironic that the two breeds most commonly found in Schutzhund/KNPV/French Ring/etc. also are not in the top 5. Rots make an occasional appearance, but they never rise to the level of national or international competition.

That list was made by an armchair dog trainer.

Having said that, I'll still steer clear of smiths' place...
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Old 10-06-2004, 07:59   #73
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Yep.

Not to mention.....NO BoerBoels?...?? Heck Sometimes when I think of the "Mop and Bucket" Clean up that would be needed after the fact...maybe its a good idea they not be more public :-)(U.S.)
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Old 10-06-2004, 10:03   #74
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it's just a list

Agreed...it's just a list and there are many more out there. All rankings, even by professional trainers (or armchair), are still nothing but opinions based on their beliefs and attitudes toward a certain breed. No one will ever be able to give anything more than that, it's like comparing Sigs and Glocks, everyone has an opinion.

I can tell you I have seen the effects of mastiffs first hand. It shows them ranked as #1 and I believe you don't see them in military/patrol jobs due to their size, not their security attributes. A technician who works for one of my managers had his fiance' killed by two in Saginaw last year. He had gone to work on Monday and killed a dear on Sunday. The deer was hanging in the shed overnight and the dogs had begun to take a few bites out of it. She went to the shed to grab something and came between the deer and the dogs. She never made it out of the shed as they ripped her throat and stomach. It was quite horrible as you can imagine.

I live in the Detroit area and feel extremely secure with my dogs. Although they set me back a several grand (including homeowners insurance), I believe it was money well spent. They are the first line of defense and I doubt more would be needed. That puts me more at ease knowing I probably wouldn't have to shoot someone....but you never know as situations like that seldom go as planned.

Having said that......German Sheperds scare the hell out of me (they always seem like their about ready to "pounce" due to their stature) and I have great respect for them.

Last edited by smithkid1974; 10-06-2004 at 10:06..
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Old 10-06-2004, 10:11   #75
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I'm doing everything I can to make sure my dog is properly socialized. I have a Boerboel (African Mastiff, basically), and they are naturally protective. He is 13 weeks and already easily pops tennis balls.

He is very friendly outdoors, actually tends to make submissive gestures when meeting people, but is already starting to "alert" and/or bark at noises while at home.

He gets his last shot on the 18th, and we are starting a puppy class the following week.
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Old 10-06-2004, 11:05   #76
smithkid1974
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Re: Yep.

Quote:
Originally posted by loandr.
Not to mention.....NO BoerBoels?...?? Heck Sometimes when I think of the "Mop and Bucket" Clean up that would be needed after the fact...maybe its a good idea they not be more public :-)(U.S.)
Loandr.

Boerboels are part of the mastiff family (#1 ranking), however the list was comprised of AKC recognized breeds.
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Old 10-06-2004, 12:19   #77
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13 weeeks and he pops tennis balls?!?!?;G

"A technician who works for one of my managers had his fiance' killed by two in Saginaw last year." And that is part of the reason they are not used in PSD or (true) protection work. They were bred specifically to fight, the expense of a reasonable temperament. (I realize there are differences between dogs and that they're not all killers AND I realize that proper socialization will make a difference in every dog (scowan gets a smiley ))

As I said in a previous post, the dog's entire temperament is crucial. Dogs who are inappropriately aggressive have NO BUSINESS BEING BRED much less used in protection/PSD. This includes fear-biters!

Another issue that made me lol about that list was the fact that you could click on each of the breeds to get to the AKC's description of them. The AKC has done more to ruin true working-protection dogs than any other organization. Their focus on conformation exclusively has ELIMINATED the working drives from the bloodlines. Again, this is why PSD's ALWAYS come from European lines. Others more educated than me on the subject have stated that there is not a single American-line GSD that will go into a fight for you. (Ed Frawley of Leerburg Kennels;W )

Read these:
http://www.leerburg.com/drives.htm
http://www.leerburg.com/qaprot.htm#fight and scroll down to "Can you define fight drive for me?"
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Old 10-06-2004, 14:41   #78
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Hello;

Very true Big Dog.

A working family of dogs, NEEDS TO BE SELECTIVELY BREED, And Culled.

More breeds of dogs, have been Destroyed and/or Breed sub-standardly, by Popularity, and those that have a Mis-Understanding of the Breed.

The AKC, Is NOT into Working dogs, and/or Performance dogs.

Selective Breeding- Prey Drive, Temperment, and putting a dog thru the test, Helps Maintain The Breeds Standards.

Skip a dog (generation), and the results are usally a decline in Performance, and Health problems.

Breeding dogs, for Bloodlines, and/or Confirmation, And NOT for Performance, Will do more harm, than good.

One disipine that must be perserved in a breed of dogs, Is to follow the guidlines that have been put in place, for that perticular Breed.

Often tho, Money, & People that do not want to take the time, and do what is right by the dog, Simply skip these Important breed standards.

Breeders of Working/Proformance dogs, breed these dogs, because they have an Understanding of the breed. They are not in to breeding dogs for money, and they Understand what it takes to Maintain the breed.

If a dog doesn't maintain the breeds standard, THEY ARE CULLED FROM THE BREEDING PROGRAM. Period.

A good saying a friend once told me, is this.

"The test of a dog is the Show--The test of a Family is Time".

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Old 10-06-2004, 19:20   #79
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Here's my home alarm. He can hear a mouse fart @ 100 yd and then track him.;f
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Old 10-06-2004, 19:51   #80
loandr.
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you were warned....

SIR..they pop tennis balls almost from birth ! :-) In a few months he will move on to the bigger thicker balls at petsmart etc. those will work... when mouths widen a bit. SKIP the "Puppy" NYLA-BONES etc PERIOD. and go straight to the "White " hard ones, other wise they will eat them...and not teeth properly. call us dude, wish we had soemone with expeience when we got them! ! :-) and remember greater PSI strength than the american mastiff almost 2x's the sheperard etc, ....but gentle as hell. When at petsmarts they seem to love the attention and the children etc. BUTTTTTT when at home....they rival the "three headed" dog that would guard the gates of "unpleaseant places" :-). Enjoy your little one ...
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