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Old 06-13-2005, 18:48   #161
sneakyracer
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Quote:
Originally posted by Quail Fat
Here is a Glock chamber for comparison with the above post.
I checked all my three pistols, Glock 17, 27 and a Kimber .45 5" , I removed the barrels and inserted a new cartridge in all three. They ALL looked like the photo you posted. The cartridge wasnt fully supported all the way to the back in the 6 o clock position.

All three catridges exposed just about the same ammount of brass in that area.

I think its inherent of the browing type pistol design.
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Old 06-13-2005, 19:10   #162
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Quote:
Originally posted by fabricator
Send me one of each and I'll blow it six ways from sunday, I have personally seen a head separation in an hk that trashed the frame, the same would happen in an xd, and as far as burst chambers are concerned the stronger the containment the stronger the bomb.
Duh.. Of course the reciever will blow. I never said it wouldn't. It's the chamber on the Glock that blows. With the H&K and XD, bullet setback or a double charge of powder will only trash the reciever. There isn't enough powder to blow the chamber, the only thing that blows is the case.

The Glock chamber is loose. As the brass expands, it slaps into the wall of the chamber. If you slap it hard enough the chamber will burst. With a snug XD or H&K chamber, there isn't enough room for the brass to slap it, like it does with the Glock.

You won't see the chamber blow on the H&K and the XD. It will never happen...
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Old 06-13-2005, 19:25   #163
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Quote:
Originally posted by Quail Fat
Duh.. Of course the reciever will blow. I never said it wouldn't. It's the chamber on the Glock that blows. With the H&K and XD, bullet setback or a double charge of powder will only trash the reciever. There isn't enough powder to blow the chamber, the only thing that blows is the case.

The Glock chamber is loose. As the brass expands, it slaps into the wall of the chamber. If you slap it hard enough the chamber will burst. With a snug XD or H&K chamber, there isn't enough room for the brass to slap it, like it does with the Glock.

You won't see the chamber blow on the H&K and the XD. It will never happen...
Not true, many kbs you read of are caused by case head separations, and your theory on why kbs happen is patently ridiculous, I dont know where to start it is so wrong, you actually think the case wall slapping the chamber causes ruptures?
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Old 06-13-2005, 20:35   #164
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Quote:
Originally posted by fabricator
Not true, many kbs you read of are caused by case head separations, and your theory on why kbs happen is patently ridiculous, I dont know where to start it is so wrong, you actually think the case wall slapping the chamber causes ruptures?
Why would a case head separation cause a Glock chamber to burst?

Nobody elses chambers burst from a case head separtaion...

The case wall slapping the chamber causes metallurgical stress of the chamber. The thinnest area of the chamber is at the 4 and 8 o'clock position. This area doesn't have the neccessary strength to contain a case head separation, this is where Glock chambers will usually start to separate.

In most pistols, the gasses will vent out of the weakest part of the case. With the Glock, this will be the thinnest area of the case, were it is unsupported. This is also the location of the 4 and 8 o'clock position.

What else causes Glock chambers to blow apart?

Again, why do Glock chambers explode and H&K and XD chambers stay together?

Why are the only chambers that blow apart, Glock chambers?

I've never heard of a Sig chamber blowing apart. Nor have I heard of a Ruger, H&K, XD, or a Steyr chamber exploding.
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Old 06-13-2005, 20:45   #165
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Quote:
Originally posted by Quail Fat
Why would a case head separation cause a Glock chamber to burst?

Nobody elses chambers burst from a case head separtaion...

The case wall slapping the chamber causes metallurgical stress of the chamber. The thinnest area of the chamber is at the 4 and 8 o'clock position. This area doesn't have the neccessary strength to contain a case head separation, this is where Glock chambers will usually start to separate.

In most pistols, the gasses will vent out of the weakest part of the case. With the Glock, this will be the thinnest area of the case, were it is unsupported. This is also the location of the 4 and 8 o'clock position.

What else causes Glock chambers to blow apart?

Again, why do Glock chambers explode and H&K and XD chambers stay together?

Why are the only chambers that blow apart, Glock chambers?

I've never heard of a Sig chamber blowing apart. Nor have I heard of a Ruger, H&K, XD, or a Steyr chamber exploding.
As Walter pointed out when he started this thread, a case failure is NOT a kB! A 9mm fired in a Glock .40 has a catastrophic case failure, yet nothing at all happens to the gun, even though the chamber gets "slapped" with the radically-expanded 9mm case. A simple case failure might blow the magazine out and do a few minor things to some frame parts, but it will NOT rupture the chamber by "slapping" it!

More to the point: if you think that Glocks are the ONLY handguns to experience kBs, you need to get out more. Come to the range I frequent and you'll see two big Smith N-frames and a bull-strong Ruger hanging on the wall with topstraps bowed and broken. An overpressure event can be catastrophic for any gun.
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Old 06-13-2005, 21:22   #166
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Thanks, Trap! Lots to learn. It sounds like KB's are due to ammo, as opposed to the firearm. Of course, I also can't seem to get the smilies to show up on my Mac. Darn Junior members!!!
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Old 06-13-2005, 22:50   #167
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Quote:
Originally posted by gary newport
As Walter pointed out when he started this thread, a case failure is NOT a kB!
Obviously case failure is not a kB. I never said it was. A kB is the chamber exloding and blowing shrapnel all over Kingdon Come, which seemingly, Glock has cornered the market with regards to pistols.

Quote:
Originally posted by gary newport
A 9mm fired in a Glock .40 has a catastrophic case failure, yet nothing at all happens to the gun, even though the chamber gets "slapped" with the radically-expanded 9mm case. A simple case failure might blow the magazine out and do a few minor things to some frame parts, but it will NOT rupture the chamber by "slapping" it!
The 9mm fired in a 40 won't cause a kB because the 9mm brass won't slap the 40 chamber. Probably because eithr the bullet will exit the case and vent the gases around the bullet out the front of the barrel, or the 9mm brass will tear before it has the chance to expand to 40 caliber. The slow moving bullet will simply funnel it's way out of the end of the barrel at whatever velocity it left the case.


I never said GLocks are the ONLY handguns to experience kBs. I said GLocks are the only PISTOLS. A big Smith N-frame is a REVOLVER. Yes revolvers will explode. We are discussing polymer framed pistols..


Here are some questions for you:

If the expanding brass slapping the Glock chamber wall doesn't cause the chamber to rupture, then what does? It does happen does it not? This question, for some reason never gets an answer. (Hint: Think loose, thin, brittle and unsupported)

Why do XDs, SigSaurs and H&K chambers stay together? I've never heard of one, nor have I seen a picture of a grenaded chamber from one of these three gun manufacturers. However, there are plenty of photographs, range stories and WWW reports of Glock chambers that have been trashed.

A tight unsupported chamber, like a Beretta 40 doesn't explode.. Yet some Glock 40/45 chambers do explode. It is VERY VERY rare, but it is nonetheless a fact.

Glock chambers sometimes burst, yet other manufacturers chambers do not. (referring to XD, Sigs and H&K)

Sigs, XD and H&K chambers are not only tighter, but also support the brass and are thicker. That is a fact. Glock chambers are loose, thin and offer less chamber support,this is also a fact.

Quote:
Originally posted by gary newport
More to the point: if you think that Glocks are the ONLY handguns to experience kBs, you need to get out more. Come to the range I frequent and you'll see two big Smith N-frames and a bull-strong Ruger hanging on the wall with topstraps bowed and broken. An overpressure event can be catastrophic for any gun.
An overpressure will cause an XD, SigPro and an H&K USP/P-2000 to blow up the polymer frame, but for Lords sake, the freakin' chambers don't fly apart like the do on a Glock.

There are very few reports of a Glock chamber staying together while the frame comes apart. Glock chambers are simply inferior. Why is this such a hard pill to swallow? I own a Glock 21, I shoot it all the time. It has never malfuctioned and realistically it more than likely won't have a kB.

With my XD, there isn't a remote possibilty of my chamber coming apart. It's impossible. The XD chamber is overengineered.

It should be obvious that Glock simply didn't do any plugged bore tests with their guns prior to releasing them. Heckler and Koch and SigSaur, along with Rugers and designed to not blow apart their chambers with a plugged bore.
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Old 06-14-2005, 06:18   #168
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Quote:
Originally posted by Quail Fat


Here are some questions for you:

If the expanding brass slapping the Glock chamber wall doesn't cause the chamber to rupture, then what does? It does happen does it not? This question, for some reason never gets an answer. (Hint: Think loose, thin, brittle chamber
No, the case "slapping" the chamber wall does not cause the chamber to explode, where did you get this "slapping" theory? Is it your own? Or do you have a some data to cite? The reason chambers explode, and it can happen on any firearm from the largest bore rifle to the smallest pistol, is there is an over pressure event, wether it be from to much powder or an obstructed bore, if you were to put a bullet in a paper cartridge and double charge it with fast burning powder and fire it, it would cause a ruptured chamber just the same as you would have with a brass case, would that be because the paper "slapped" the chamber hard enough? The simple answer to your question is the brass case "slapping" the chamber has nothing to do with rupturing the chamber, it is a simple matter of overpressure, the case actually helps contain the explosion it adds to the overall strength of the chamber, take fast burning powder and pack it in a pipe with a fuse, set it off, what happens?
There was no brass case to "slap" the inside of the pipe, why did it explode? There was to much pressure for the pipe to contain so it ruptured thats why.
If glock started making rubber cases would chamber ruptures be a thing of the past? There would be no case "slap" right? or better yet a caseless cartridge it would be impossible for one to blow up because there is no case to "slap" the chamber right?
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Old 06-14-2005, 06:56   #169
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^ The more of QF I read the more convinced I am that his only problem, if you can call it that, is he does not like Glocks.
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Old 06-14-2005, 07:15   #170
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Quote:
Originally posted by fabricator
No, the case "slapping" the chamber wall does not cause the chamber to explode, where did you get this "slapping" theory? Is it your own? Or do you have a some data to cite? The reason chambers explode, and it can happen on any firearm from the largest bore rifle to the smallest pistol, is there is an over pressure event, wether it be from to much powder or an obstructed bore, if you were to put a bullet in a paper cartridge and double charge it with fast burning powder and fire it, it would cause a ruptured chamber just the same as you would have with a brass case, would that be because the paper "slapped" the chamber hard enough? The simple answer to your question is the brass case "slapping" the chamber has nothing to do with rupturing the chamber, it is a simple matter of overpressure, the case actually helps contain the explosion it adds to the overall strength of the chamber, take fast burning powder and pack it in a pipe with a fuse, set it off, what happens?
There was no brass case to "slap" the inside of the pipe, why did it explode? There was to much pressure for the pipe to contain so it ruptured thats why.
If glock started making rubber cases would chamber ruptures be a thing of the past? There would be no case "slap" right? or better yet a caseless cartridge it would be impossible for one to blow up because there is no case to "slap" the chamber right?
Maybe slapping is a poor choice of words. If loose chambers are such a great idea, how come only Glock uses them?

Jeez.. why can't somebody tell me why Glock chambers explode and why H&Ks, Sigs and XD don't?

Once again, my question is avoided.
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Old 06-14-2005, 07:24   #171
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Quote:
Originally posted by TrapdoorBilly
^ The more of QF I read the more convinced I am that his only problem, if you can call it that, is he does not like Glocks.
I don't hate Glocks. Did you even read my post? I've owned over 20 of them and I shoot Glocks very well.

Will somebody please answer this simple question.

1. During case head separation, Why do some Glock chambers explode, while H&K/Sig/XD chambers do not explode?
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Old 06-14-2005, 07:34   #172
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Quote:
Originally posted by Quail Fat
I don't hate Glocks. Did you even read my post? I've owned over 20 of them and I shoot Glocks very well.

Will somebody please answer this simple question.

1. During case head separation, Why do some Glock chambers explode, while H&K/Sig/XD chambers do not explode?
Did you read my post or do you just choose to ignore it, can you state categorically that there has never been a rupture of a hk or xd chamber?
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Old 06-14-2005, 07:37   #173
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In order for your question to be relevant you have to be able to prove there has never been a rupture of an hk or xd chamber.
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Old 06-14-2005, 09:03   #174
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Quote:
Originally posted by fabricator
In order for your question to be relevant you have to be able to prove there has never been a rupture of an hk or xd chamber.
There hasn't been. You can't prove otherwise.

So I have to prove there has never been a rupture of an XD/H&K/SigSauer chamber for my question to be relevant?

I have searched all over the web and have never read of any reports, nor have I ever heard of any reports, nor have I ever seen a photograph or witnessed an H&K/XD/SigSaur chamber explode. I can't offer any more proof than that.

Why can't the Glock 40/45 chamber contain a case-head separation??
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Old 06-14-2005, 09:22   #175
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Quote:
Originally posted by Quail Fat
There hasn't been. You can't prove otherwise.

So I have to prove there has never been a rupture of an XD/H&K/SigSauer chamber for my question to be relevant?

I have searched all over the web and have never read of any reports, nor have I ever heard of any reports, nor have I ever seen a photograph or witnessed an H&K/XD/SigSaur chamber explode. I can't offer any more proof than that.

Why can't the Glock 40/45 chamber contain a case-head separation??
There is a very simple answer to that one, the chamber will not rupture upon case head separation, the case fails at the six oclock position and high pressure gases are blown out thru the magwell, causing the mag to be blown out and often cracking the frame as has happened here And would happen on an xd also, can you prove that a case head separation has ever caused a glock chamber to rupture?
I have personally had case head separations with glock, colt, kimber, in all these events the chamber did not rupture, and the only damage to the guns was trashed mags and in the glock a broken mag relaese, these were all case head separations and nothing happened the chamber here is the one that I had in my 21 note the intact chamber.
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Old 06-14-2005, 09:57   #176
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Quote:
Originally posted by fabricator
There is a very simple answer to that one, the chamber will not rupture upon case head separation, the case fails at the six oclock position and high pressure gases are blown out thru the magwell...
Sometimes the Glock chamber will rupture upon case head separation yet H&Ks, Sigs and XDs do not.

This won't happen to an XD
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Old 06-14-2005, 10:08   #177
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Quote:
Originally posted by Quail Fat
Sometimes the Glock chamber will rupture upon case head separation yet H&Ks, Sigs and XDs do not.

This won't happen to an XD
Never say never my friend, neither of us can state categorically that there are no xd or hk barrels out there with blown chambers, only a fool would do so, when at any time he could be proven to be wrong, there is also the numbers thing, there are hundreds of thousands more glocks out there than hk or xd combined, therefore there is a much larger chance that any given thing is going to happen in the glock.
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Old 06-14-2005, 10:24   #178
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Quote:
Originally posted by fabricator
Never say never my friend, neither of us can state categorically that there are no xd or hk barrels out there with blown chambers, only a fool would do so, when at any time he could be proven to be wrong, there is also the numbers thing, there are hundreds of thousands more glocks out there than hk or xd combined, therefore there is a much larger chance that any given thing is going to happen in the glock.
There are more 1911s out there than Glock 21s. Not too many reports of 1911 chambers going south..

;b
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Old 06-14-2005, 10:45   #179
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After many years of shooting and reading, I have come to the conclusion that all guns, under the proper (bad) conditions, can explode causing damage (call it a KB or what ever you want). To determine the cause of the explosion damage, a full examination of all components is required and as many variables need to be eliminated as possible.

Even the massive 8 inch guns of the USS IOWA could not contain a charge that was too hot for a heavy projectile, but it took a team of experts to find the true cause. Check out below for details.

http://anil299.tripod.com/vol_003_no...b/page004.html

In general, the dynamics of over pressure explosions causing damage are the same for all types of pistols, revolvers, rifles, shot guns and cannons. In the most basic terms, the damage relates to to how high the pressure gets, how fast the pressure is lowered by venting and where the venting occurs. Variables such as locked/unlocked breach, chamber/barrel thickness, heavy or light recoil springs, material used in construction, type and weight of powder charge, primer, design and material of casing, head spacing, design and fit of bullet, rifling, condition of gun, and etc.,etc., all factor into the end result. The true or full cause of a KB may prove to be very simple or very complicated.

The pressure caused by the expanding gas of the burning powder must vent (be released) somewhere unless the chamber/barrel is strong enough to fully contain it. In all probability, it will vent first at the point of least resistance. Without an obstructed barrel, given proper a proper powder charge, proper head spacing and a properly sized bullet, the normal point of least resistance is to push the projectile (bullet) down the barrel. However, all may not be proper or normal.

If a round is double charged with a fast burning powder or the bullet is too heavy for the charge, an over pressure condition will result -KB. If a squib round lodges in the barrel and a second round is fired without clearing the obstruction, an over pressure condition will result - KB. If the bullet is physically retarded from moving out of the case, an over pressure condition will result - KB. The over pressure condition may result in some damage to the gun, barrel or casing - KB. If the casing is not fully seated into the chamber before detonation, the casing will not likely contain the pressure and will rupture - KB. The rupture may also cause secondary damage or detonation - KB. An explosion with negative consequences will likely occur from the above circumstances. The extent and area of damage will depend on many factors including the design of the gun.

In short, over pressure and/or malfunction can blow up ANY gun, so proceed with caution and common sense.
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Old 06-14-2005, 11:32   #180
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Quote:
Originally posted by Quail Fat
There are more 1911s out there than Glock 21s. Not too many reports of 1911 chambers going south..

;b
Do you have actual numbers of glock and 1911 chambers that have failed? If not any conjecture is meaningless.
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