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Old 06-16-2005, 19:39   #201
Eddie C.
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I know that Dean has called us on Glock Talk 'Kool-Aid drinkers'. I guess that's in reference to our admiration for a pistol which we feel is reliable and well made, and Dean feels is a kabooming pile of plastic and metal. Take it from there.

Eddie C.
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Old 06-16-2005, 20:35   #202
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Quote:
Originally posted by fabricator
Phil, do you actually think deano is fair and balanced in his treatment of glocks?

No - I don't - but that's very different from chronic prevarication...(Walter word for lying)...
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Old 06-16-2005, 20:47   #203
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Quote:
Originally posted by Eddie C.
I know that Dean has called us on Glock Talk 'Kool-Aid drinkers'. I guess that's in reference to our admiration for a pistol which we feel is reliable and well made, and Dean feels is a kabooming pile of plastic and metal. Take it from there.

Eddie C.

That's it????


Don't get me wrong - I clearly beleive Glocks are safe - as is proven everyday by those of us who us them.

And, I believe that they are safe even with lead reloads and infrequent cleanings as those who see my Glock at our range often kid me about it getting cleaned every year or so.

And, I believe the "firing out of battery" rumors are just that because, I've done the test to prove to myself that if a Glock can close the receiver to the barrel, then it will be able to have the slide go up the incline and fully close.


And, I believe that Portland PD has probably NOT received lab test results confirming their original position -
or they would have produced the reports in the same public venue that they originally used to announce the "problem".

But, none of that makes Dean Speir a liar.

The koolaid drinking is obvious literary license.

And I'm still waiting and hoping for a clear reference...

Phil
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Old 06-17-2005, 07:38   #204
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Quote:
Originally posted by philkryder
That's it????


Don't get me wrong - I clearly beleive Glocks are safe - as is proven everyday by those of us who us them.

And, I believe that they are safe even with lead reloads and infrequent cleanings as those who see my Glock at our range often kid me about it getting cleaned every year or so.

And, I believe the "firing out of battery" rumors are just that because, I've done the test to prove to myself that if a Glock can close the receiver to the barrel, then it will be able to have the slide go up the incline and fully close.


And, I believe that Portland PD has probably NOT received lab test results confirming their original position -
or they would have produced the reports in the same public venue that they originally used to announce the "problem".

But, none of that makes Dean Speir a liar.

The koolaid drinking is obvious literary license.

And I'm still waiting and hoping for a clear reference...

Phil


Phil,
If you want references, go read Deans writings at the Gun Zone, for his views on what he thinks. I have enough work here keeping these banana's in line, without worrying who's writing what somewhere else.


Eddie C.
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Old 06-17-2005, 08:59   #205
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Quote:
Originally posted by Eddie C.
Phil,
If you want references, go read Deans writings at the Gun Zone, for his views on what he thinks. I have enough work here keeping these banana's in line, without worrying who's writing what somewhere else.


Eddie C.

Ok - sure - been there - done that.

I thought that since the disparagement was so pervasive, it would be easy for someone to point to a single specific reference.

Absent that....

Maybe someone else has a specific refernce....
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Old 06-17-2005, 09:06   #206
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Phil, exactly what are you looking for?
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Old 06-17-2005, 18:31   #207
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Quote:
Originally posted by fabricator
Phil, exactly what are you looking for?

The ideal would be two URLs -

The first would be pointed to something Speir had written or said that was alleged to be false.

The second would be another reference showing WHY the first was false.
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Old 07-20-2005, 15:05   #208
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Obstructed bore test?

The obstructed bore test is pretty much a standard now and has been used for some time; most service pistols wll pass it.

The Glock, SIG, HK, and Beretta 40s have passed the obstructed bore test as done by the FBI (Glock in 97), INS/BP (Beretta/SIG in 94 and 99), and the DHS (SIG/HK in 04) for example.

So Glock 40s have passed obstructed bore tests and some have still ruptured chambers... which suggests something was very wrong w the gun and/or ammo and/or shooter at the time. Some folks could kB an M1 tank if they coud reload for it...

I was standing next to a brand new Ruger GP100 in 1989 that ruptured a chamber w a round of Federal factory 125g SJHP! Hard to find a tougher gun w more chamber support than that... I trust Glocks w factory ammo. I think they may be closer to the edge than some other guns, but not enough to make me crazy.

Stuff happens. To everybody. Sooner or later. ;b
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Old 07-22-2005, 10:25   #209
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Anyone seen this page ? http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html



Edit: Nevermind, I see there has been some issues with his before. A lot of tension between TGZ and GT.
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Old 07-27-2005, 14:26   #210
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Personally, I would like to see Dean Speir and WalterGa both un-banned and given their own forum on GT to have at each other. Name the new forum KaBoom so we all can kick back and watch the fireworks.
~1
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Old 07-27-2005, 15:24   #211
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Quote:
Originally posted by MXRacer101
Name the new forum KaBoom so we all can kick back and watch the fireworks.
~1
I think Kaboom Kaboom because of the double explosions.

Did that guy shooting the 600 nitro express pistol loose his thumb?
STUPD

BrokenArrow
The obstructed bore tests are making me feel better. Does any of the test material show serial numbers or date of manufacture of the weapon? Where would I look for that info? Many of my guns predate the dates you mentioned.
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Old 08-08-2005, 11:36   #212
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I am a newbie and I haven't read past the initial post on this thread. I've owned a few pistols and finally have settled on a Glock 26, which I find to be amazingly accurate, and will soon purchase a G32C. Since my friend showed me how to aim properly as well as gave me some good safety training, I've become a decent shot, which, to me, means that at this point in time I can put 50% of my shots on a paper plate at 25 yards and I am still improving. My question is what is a "KB"? And what is meant by "a KB at 6 o'clock"? Please excuse my ignorance, or, if you cannot, tell me why. Thanks.

Doug;Q
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Old 08-08-2005, 11:51   #213
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Never mind. Have read the thread and understand "KB" and 6 O'clock, etc. Sorry to be so quick to jump in. Thanks.

Doug ;Q
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Old 08-29-2005, 11:53   #214
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My G17 stock barrel chamber is very loose, I can literally rock the cartridge case around. However I collect all of the spent brass cases and have not seen any unusual defects indicating overpressure or the partially supported chamber is a problem.

I think it's the folks that reload their cartridges with too much powder that have the KB's.
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Old 09-11-2005, 09:07   #215
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S&W 1006 chamber vs. G29 chamber

From the almost meaningless datapoints department:

I just picked up a Glock 29 yesterday. It's my first Glock and my 3rd 10mm pistol. I'm compared three different loadings in each chamber.

My conclusion is that the S&W chamber is maybe slightly tighter, with very slightly less slop with a loaded round dropped in the chamber. A spent case fired in the 1006 has almost no lateral movement to it in the 1006 chamber, when inserted into the G29 chamber there is some lateral movement possible.

Both chambers seem to have about the same amount of "missing" case support at the 6 o'clock point, although the G29 seems to have a wider unsupported taper between 3 and 6 o'clock and 6 and 9 o'clock than the S&W 1006.

It's kind of hard for me to see that these very slight differences would mean much, but I also can't help but admit that I'll be buying a KKM barrel for shooting reloads with it.
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Old 10-14-2005, 17:29   #216
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Interesting thread.
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Old 10-17-2005, 19:30   #217
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This is a informative thread, but I think we should consider what the engineers at reputable companies that makes barrels think about the current design of barrels in this discussion of kb's.( Let's just forgot about the double or triple charge situations for a moment as that is pilot error.) Now,it appears that that the most sucessful aftermarket barrel manufactures(Barstol/KKM/Jarvis/etc/if not all) are making .40 and .45 barrels with tighter chambers and "much" more case support in the 6'oclock position, and conventional rifling. I do not think these guys lack understanding of what it takes to make a better barrel or a gun reliable. In fact, I think, they are on top of their game and are market driven to produce a better product and achieve product growth or lose profit/layoff workers/go out of business/etc/etc. If Glock gave you a choice between a barrel with a tighter chamber, more case support in the 6'oclock position, conventional rifling, or the current factory barrel, which would you choose? Sometimes one has to think outside of their own little box. Think..why are the successful guys who have lived and breathe barrel manufacturing for years or decades in a compeitive market thinking a certain way?
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Old 10-18-2005, 07:28   #218
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Generally, agreed. However the down side to the very tight barrel is the reliability of feeding ammo and possible dirty field conditions. For target use or if you want to shoot reloads then the after market barrel is the way to go. For business purposes, I am inclined to stick with the Glock factory barrel and high quality factory ammo.

I also believe that any weapon used for business should be individually tested with several hundred rounds of the carry ammo and function with 100% reliability before it is used in business.
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Old 10-18-2005, 14:37   #219
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Quote:
Originally posted by jbremount
If Glock gave you a choice between a barrel with a tighter chamber, more case support in the 6'oclock position, conventional rifling, or the current factory barrel, which would you choose? Sometimes one has to think outside of their own little box. Think..why are the successful guys who have lived and breathe barrel manufacturing for years or decades in a compeitive market thinking a certain way?
My gut instinct is that the original Glock design for the Austrian military was a marvel of engineering:

Minimal weight, nearly indestructable modern materials, huge capacity and designed to be extremely reliable under the most awful of conditions, and I think the looser chamber with the wider taper was part of that reliability package.

I also think, though, that this design philosophy doesn't necessarily "fit" for weapons that aren't going to be used in a non-combat environment. I think most guns, including most LEO guns and virtually all civilian CCW guns, don't spend a couple of weeks in the mud/rain/weather or really get all that dirty, or at least not in-the-field combat dirty.

Which I think means that some of the design aspects, such as the loose chamber, need to be re-thought in terms of the way many people actually use some of the other calibers (.45, 10mm -- heavily reloaded) and perhaps in light of the pressure differences between the original cartridge, 9x19 and other cartridges for which the design has been simply resized (10mm, .40S&W, .357Sig).
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Old 10-18-2005, 18:44   #220
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Quote:
Originally posted by mobocracy
My gut instinct is that the original Glock design for the Austrian military was a marvel of engineering:

Minimal weight, nearly indestructable modern materials, huge capacity and designed to be extremely reliable under the most awful of conditions, and I think the looser chamber with the wider taper was part of that reliability package.

I also think, though, that this design philosophy doesn't necessarily "fit" for weapons that aren't going to be used in a non-combat environment. I think most guns, including most LEO guns and virtually all civilian CCW guns, don't spend a couple of weeks in the mud/rain/weather or really get all that dirty, or at least not in-the-field combat dirty.

Which I think means that some of the design aspects, such as the loose chamber, need to be re-thought in terms of the way many people actually use some of the other calibers (.45, 10mm -- heavily reloaded) and perhaps in light of the pressure differences between the original cartridge, 9x19 and other cartridges for which the design has been simply resized (10mm, .40S&W, .357Sig).

What is the "downside" of the current design that rethinking might change?

Good ammo, that is within spec works JUST FINE in millions of Glocks everyday....

9x19 at Nato levels is relatively high pressure.

As was pointed out in one of the very early posts in this thread, the "loose support" in the chamber allows BRASS failure as a "safety valve" rather than catastrophic chamber or barrel failure. It does more than just ensure reliable feeding.

The loose fit is "a good thing" (tm)...
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Old 10-18-2005, 19:51   #221
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Quote:
Originally posted by philkryder
What is the "downside" of the current design that rethinking might change?

Good ammo, that is within spec works JUST FINE in millions of Glocks everyday....

9x19 at Nato levels is relatively high pressure.

As was pointed out in one of the very early posts in this thread, the "loose support" in the chamber allows BRASS failure as a "safety valve" rather than catastrophic chamber or barrel failure. It does more than just ensure reliable feeding.

The loose fit is "a good thing" (tm)...
Can you post some references to 9x19 NATO ammo pressure specs and how they differ from SAAMI specs for 9x19? I have heard apocryphal stories of 9x19 NATO "submachine gun" ammo, but I'm unaware of a NATO 9x19 pressure specification that exceeds 9x19 SAAMI specifications. I can find SAAMI specs for 9x19 "+P" loads, too, or is your point that NATO 9x19 is loaded to what's usually referred to as the SAAMI-recognized +P pressure spec?

As far as the idea that the loose chamber allows for a "safety valve", that would make sense if the overpressure had someplace to go and didn't blow out magazines and all the other secondary damage seen in KBs.

If fully supporting the chamber in a barrel that "needs" a pressure release as you describe results in catestrophic barrel failures, then the barrel is insufficient in some aspect of its design (wall thickness, metallurgy, etc).
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Old 10-18-2005, 20:40   #222
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Quote:
Originally posted by philkryder
What is the "downside" of the current design that rethinking might change?

Good ammo, that is within spec works JUST FINE in millions of Glocks everyday....

9x19 at Nato levels is relatively high pressure.

As was pointed out in one of the very early posts in this thread, the "loose support" in the chamber allows BRASS failure as a "safety valve" rather than catastrophic chamber or barrel failure. It does more than just ensure reliable feeding.

The loose fit is "a good thing" (tm)...
I have a pile of .40 brass that a friend gave me from his shooting range and almost "all" of the brass shot from a glock .40 has the bulge. My glock's factory barrel would bulge the case even with winchester value pack ammo which is not a hot round. Now, I reload and shoot factory ammo for the 38/357, the 44 and 45acp and 45 colt. One should always look at your brass and primers for signs of stress. This bulge is not a good thing! Especially with such mildly loaded ammo as the winchester white box. I have never heard of a pistol having a safety valve to self destruct such as you described. Most of the LEO and civilians that are purchasing Glock pistols do not shoot ammo that requires this overly large chamber. I have heard that glock's ammo feeding reliability is increased with the large unsupported area in the 6'oclock position. My ammo feeding so far has been 100% with a Storm Lake aftermarket barrel with much more case support and a slightly differently angled feed ramp. So the ammo feeding reasoning is just not true. That is a design problem that can be fixed. My Storm Lake aftermarket barrel has a tighter chamber and I have never had a failure to chamber issue. Never. Also,the difference in the case support is very apparent. MY aftermarket barrel never bulges the case. "Never!" I have shot 200 gr double tab ammo and the cases looked better than the winchester white box brass from a factory barrel. I have heard chatter that Glock is fixing the case support issue at the 6'oclock position on some of the newer guns. Check out the barrels on the new .357sig. I still think glock's are great guns,98% perfect! It is just their barrels in the larger calibers that need some adjustments. Then again, all good guns hang around and get improved over time. At the present,I find it easier to just buy an aftermarket barrel and be happy.
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Old 10-19-2005, 00:31   #223
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Quote:
Originally posted by jbremount
I have a pile of .40 brass that a friend gave me from his shooting range and almost "all" of the brass shot from a glock .40 has the bulge.

.... be happy.
You should do whatever you feel you need to do to "be happy."

But, I've never seen the downside of bulged brass.

If you only fire it once - as Glock recommends you use new ammo - then it is a non-issue.

If you fire reloads, then you already know the risks and should take whatever precautions you feel you need to accept responsibility for your own actions.

My point was that the design is not at fault when following the manufacturers recommendations.

Phil
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Old 10-19-2005, 00:34   #224
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Quote:
Originally posted by mobocracy
Can you post some references to 9x19 NATO ammo pressure specs and how they differ from SAAMI specs for 9x19? I have heard apocryphal stories of 9x19 NATO "submachine gun" ammo, but I'm unaware of a NATO 9x19 pressure specification that exceeds 9x19 SAAMI specifications. I can find SAAMI specs for 9x19 "+P" loads, too, or is your point that NATO 9x19 is loaded to what's usually referred to as the SAAMI-recognized +P pressure spec?

As far as the idea that the loose chamber allows for a "safety valve", that would make sense if the overpressure had someplace to go and didn't blow out magazines and all the other secondary damage seen in KBs.

If fully supporting the chamber in a barrel that "needs" a pressure release as you describe results in catestrophic barrel failures, then the barrel is insufficient in some aspect of its design (wall thickness, metallurgy, etc).
Those things such as blown out magazines are much less a problem than blown chambers.

As for Nato and plus p pressures, my point was that they are not significantly less than the other calibers 10, 40, 357, that were mentioned in the earlier post.

Phil
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Old 10-19-2005, 19:00   #225
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Quote:
Originally posted by jbremount
.... Think.

.why are the successful guys who have lived and breathe barrel manufacturing for years or decades in a compeitive market thinking a certain way?
Well, I thought for a bit and here is what I came up with.

After market barrel manufacturers sell barrels that are different than the factory barrels.

If they were the SAME, no one would buy them.
So they must make them different to attract buyers.
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