NYPD & NYFD: Who should be in charge of

***Gallium*** · 05-09-2005, 22:19

incidents / accidents where life safety issues are the most pressing?

http://wcbs880.com/topstories/local_...129140523.html

May 9, 2005 1:52 pm US/Eastern
NEW YORK (WCBS) The heads of the NYPD and NYFD sparred today at a City Council hearing where the FDNY disputed Mayor Bloomberg's recent executive order that the police dept should have sole command at all emergency scenes.

NYFD Chief Peter Hayden Hayden testified that putting the NYPD in overall charge of a major incident makes no sense.
He said he thought long and hard to about opposing administration policy publicly.

"I felt that I owed it to my department and to those who were killed on 9/11 and those who will respond to the next terrorist event," said Hayden.

But police commissioner Ray Kelly argued that the police should be given primary responsibility, but as our Rich Lamb reports, his arguments met with a skeptical response from City Council Speak Gifford Miller.

"If the life safety issues are the most important thing and the fire department is in charge of life safety and the police department will defer to the fire department then why wouldn't we just put the fire department in charge?" he asked Kelly.

Kelly replied in an era of terroism the stakes are just too high.

To hear Lamb's complete reports, click on the audio links above.

Also on Monday, Paul Murnane filed a report on an exercise being held on Randall's Island that replicated a mock attack on Jamaica staion, while Sean Adams examined the vulnerability of New Jersey's "Chemical Alley."

(© MMV, CBS Broadcasting Inc., All Rights Reserved.)

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***seanmac45*** · 05-09-2005, 23:05

This has less to do with chain of command or ability to handle than it does money.

The designated Haz Mat first responders are feasting at the federal trough big time.

FDNY just got shoved out of the trough by NYPD.

C'est la vie.

CAcop · 05-11-2005, 01:01

Around here it is kind of a case by case thing because we get along well and play with each other nice. Now other places....

Medic08 · 05-11-2005, 17:36

Who ever is doing the EMS end of it should be in charge until there are no longer any pt's at the scene. Unless there is someone with a gun or somethng.

cjfive · 05-11-2005, 21:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Medic08
Who ever is doing the EMS end of it should be in charge until there are no longer any pt's at the scene. Unless there is someone with a gun or somethng.

Exactly the point. No two emergencies are ever going to be quite the same. Where one you may respond and want/need PD to be the primary unit(active shooter, mass homicide, etc.) the next one while dealing with the public safety probably should be handled by the FD(Large Fire, chemical spill, life threatening injuries from accident or whatever) I know locally, we have had local FD, PD, Sheriffs, and state PD all respond if they are near by or think they might be able to help and don't have anything else pending. If PD shows up first(which is pretty normal) they do what they can to help(stabilize pt, take down shooter whatever) without putting themselves in a situtation they aren't equiped for(entrapment in a vehicle, burning structure, etc.) If it then calls for a FD response, as soon as the first truck responds FD takes over. Of course we don't have any of the major overlap like NYPD and FDNY seem to have with rescue squads, haz mat squads, etc. As some one up above said its all about the money, and both depts. want the money and unfortunatly both depts. are headed by politicians who see any enchrochment on their area of expertise as a danger to their budgets.
The solution? Hoses at 50 paces
:joker:

Tvov · 05-15-2005, 20:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Medic08
Who ever is doing the EMS end of it should be in charge until there are no longer any pt's at the scene. Unless there is someone with a gun or somethng.

The problem with this is then a change of command occurs in the middle of an incident. Confusion can result (ha, I don't believe I said that. When has there NOT been confusion at a scene? lol).

In CT, if and when the FD is called, the senior local fire officer is command. This is includes if state guys show up. Most FDs don't abuse this. A lot of PD, especially the State Police, really hate this. It does make it is easier to find the IC, as it is always an FD "white hat".

Of course, no matter who is supposed to be command, someone else is going to complain about it.

***Gallium*** · 05-15-2005, 21:03

This past Friday I went to a meeting in NYC, parked my car at 79th & Riverdale. The meeting was supposed to last for 1/2 hr, I rolled up at @:05pm

I'm there for an hour, and I'm thinking...Geez, it sure is weird how it started raining so heavily, and it's not supposed to start raining until Sunday...

I had to wait 1 hr for my car. There were in excess of 50 FD vehicles and about 25 NYPD vehicles. I stopped counting after I hit 75!

This picture is looking ssw from the garage, down Riverside drive , and across to the onramp for the West Side Highway.

The rain was from the hoses of a few ladder companies.

The FD had that spot on complete lockdown.

NY Daily News story

http://www.nydailynews.com/05-14-200...p-264773c.html

DepChief · 05-17-2005, 12:50

If the NYPD wants to run all the incidents, just give the cops the turnout gear, airpacks, and hose at the next highrise incident and let the firefighters stand down the street directing traffic. That will be the last time the NYPD will ever take charge of a major incident.

PBR_Cowboy · 05-20-2005, 08:18

I agree with a few people on this, I believe that the Fire/EMS people should remain in charge of a scene or take over command of scene once they arrive. Where I am from that's how it works, the cops are great and most of them are really good friends of mine but, they understand that once we arrive on scene it's our show unless it's going to be some long drawn out investigation over a murder or something like that. Plus they know that what we do is not there job, and 99.9% don't want it, they have there own problems to deal with, just by what they've said. Now if it's a huge incident that is a catastrophy or something like that we will use a unified command system where FD, PD, and OEM are in charge working together.

***seanmac45*** · 05-20-2005, 09:27

Quote:

Originally posted by DepChief
If the NYPD wants to run all the incidents, just give the cops the turnout gear, airpacks, and hose at the next highrise incident and let the firefighters stand down the street directing traffic. That will be the last time the NYPD will ever take charge of a major incident.

Depchief;

You need to learn a little more about our ESU. They are highly trained and equipped Hazmat first responders. Their protective gear and training meets and in many cases EXCEEDS that of FDNY.

I don't remember any bickering on 9/11. I don't remember any arguments about chain of command or duties at the scene.

What I do remember is EVERYONE working like dogs in unison until the last hope of a person being rescued was exhausted.

I also remember that of the 23 NYPD MOS killed on that day, 14 were ESU men who entered the stairwells in Scott airpacks to assist with rescue and evacuation efforts.

When it counts, we don't need protocols. The job gets done, and it gets done to a standard that is held in high regards by many.

Just thought you might like to know.

DepChief · 05-25-2005, 10:59

seanmac45,

IT WAS A JOKE !!!!!

***seanmac45*** · 05-25-2005, 11:17

Sorry 'bout that.

Sometimes the internet does not allow for proper interpretation of demeanor.

Sore spot, I guess.

Back channel comm with Depchief haa proven just how wrong I was.

He's alright in my book.

Charlie Fox · 05-28-2005, 08:57

Unfortunately NYC politics come WAY before anything else. The "Good 'Ol Boy" network is still as strong there as it was at the turn of the century. Having talked with several NYC FF's and NYPD MOS there seems to be no lack of gold badges at the scene of any major emergency and they all want their 15 minutes of fame! But we all know that water and excriment flow downhill and guess who gets left holding the bag? Yep, the men and women that actually do the work! Unified Command? Yeah, right!

SeanMac - hang in there, it could be worse - you could work in DC!

KY Moose · 06-02-2005, 07:28

Have they ever heard of unified command? How about using that as it's outlined in FEMA's National Incident Management System (NIMS)?

CAcop · 06-21-2005, 22:08

Quote:

Originally posted by KY Moose
Have they ever heard of unified command? How about using that as it's outlined in FEMA's National Incident Management System (NIMS)?

There's two courses of action management can make at a big hairy scene:

1. Unified command? As long as it's unified under me.

2. Who me? I don't want to make a decision that could kill my move up the ladder.

In the end it is going to be like how it always is. The brass will be behind the lines and us at the front lines will be taking charge. Steven Ambrose got it right in his book on D-Day. It was senior NCO's and junior officers who won the battle at Normandy. They knew what they had to do and got it done.

I think it is safe to say that on 09/11/01 management didn't need to do much other than try to stay out of the way and get their people what they needed.

NCUrk · 07-09-2005, 20:08

My humble 0.02 cents worth. I believe CAcop has hit the nail on the head. I am just a lowelly FF/Medic/HM tech, but it always seems that when the bell sounds the guys on the street seem to work well with each other. Sure you have some petty rivelry at times, but if it is a serious incedent that usssually disappears. I can not speak for FDNY or NYPD as I have never even been in the state... let alone the City. I live in a nice quite little area that has its fair share of calls, but for the most part... We all get along.

Let the politicions politic and let the guys on the street do what they do best....