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Old 01-30-2007, 14:12   #276
OldRonin
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Head shots

Blind Dog,

Thank you for that very enlightening description. The way you explain it makes perfect sense. I see you carried a lot of ammo. That tells me a lot right there. The thing you said that really struck me, and will stick with me is "the handgun is not a one shot stop weapon", or words to that effect. Its good to have that already burned into the core of your brain so you don't stop shooting too early.

Reminds me of the joke about the guy who is on trial for murder after a legitimate shooting of an armed intruder into his home at night:

Prosecutor: Mr. Jones, the forensic evidence reveals you shot this man 15 times with a powerful 9mm handgun filled with those hi-tech expanding bullets! Fifteen times! That's just vicious, reprehensible behavior. Why on earth would you shoot this man 15 times?

Defendant: Because that's all I had, and I ran out of ammunition.

++++++++++

I'm sure you've heard it before. But it really illustrates the gap between citizen perceptions and the reality of the legitimate use of deadly force to save lives. We end up painted as the bad guys, after putting ourselves in harm's way to save the lives of others from career criminals. What a world. I'm grateful guys like you are out there.
Thanks.
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Old 01-30-2007, 15:14   #277
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When I first got into Law Enforcment in the late nineteen seventies. One of my first fireams training officers told the class and I quote.
"Now a days we are useing the 357 Hollow point, used to be a few years ago we only got 38 spl. round nosed. This was as true then as it is now" No matter what you shoot the bad guy with keep pulling the trigger till they stop kicking" "If they are still kicking they can still hurt you"

The moral of that is that with the energy delivered from any hand gun round one will not always stop an opponent period. I do not care what any one says about any of the new wonder bullets they will not instantly stop an attack. As long as an attacker ( someone who wants to kill you) can pull a trigger you are in danger.
I talked before about training, that is only part of it, you have to have the will to kill another human also or all the training in the world will not save your ***.
Will is a very individual thing many folks(good and bad) have been shot several times and still had the will to continue. Others get aminor injury and fall apart. That is all will.
To injure or kill another human is a very hard thing, our culture trains us almost from birth, to respect life, and to not do hurt to another life without good cause.Training only addresses part of that.
SO IF YOU CARRY FOR SELF DEFENSE THAT IS A QUESTION YOU HAVE TO COME TO GRIPS WITH BEFORE THE REAL THING HAPPENS.
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Old 01-30-2007, 17:50   #278
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One shot drop... WILL TO ENGAGE

Blind Dog,

This has probably evolved into another thread, but I'll end this with my corresponding experience.
I've been teaching unarmed self-defense for a long time now. I ALWAYS took into account the factor of emotional/ethical/psychological capacity to harm another human, even one who was about to do horrible things to their loved ones.
I've had a lot of students who could learn the techniques, but when I put them in the scenario where they really had to let their violence out, they just couldn't do it. With more training, Most of them eventually broke through it. (I'm a retired psychologist as well, so I know a few tricks). But there were a few who just couldn't bring themselves to terminate someone, even in a (pretty realistic) training scenario.
Some sheep can't help but stay sheep. Maybe that's a good thing.
Over and out on this topic for me.

John
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Old 01-30-2007, 18:05   #279
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The head shot is a good choice when shots to com are not working. The reason could either be body armor or simply the person is amped up or on drugs. The only way to stop the fight quickly is a CNS hit. If you can hit the head then try the pelvis. But to say the head is always a bad target is not correct.
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Old 01-31-2007, 11:32   #280
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I never said the head was a bad target, just a difficult one. More so under the amount of stress involved in a self defensive context.
I did say that shooting for the largest body part and shooting multipul times was, in most cases a better option. Or as the old saying goes empty the gun, if he is still kicking reload
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Old 02-25-2007, 11:51   #281
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I don't know if anyone brought it up yet but why not lasers on all service pistols?? That wold help in aiming fast but it wold be expensive.
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Old 02-25-2007, 18:37   #282
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Most departments are unwilling to spend the money and the political fallout would be or is perceved to be bad. Look at the crappola that comes out anytime some mongrel gets maced or tasered. Even if they get swarmed some unknowing fool thinks the police ganged up on the poor guy.
When a person is unruly and combative rather than fight with him one on one police now have tools that are not harmful as in the past. A four foot billy is not only intimadateing to look at it stops fights fast also
I can see the press now." the unknown man was upset over somthing after robbing the store. He then killed in his tracks by the laser guided bullets. It is unknown why the decesed was shot, he was only warned to drop his pistol five times."
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Old 03-03-2007, 10:58   #283
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Two words, Knee Caps!

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Old 03-03-2007, 15:36   #284
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tiel Raptor
Two words, Knee Caps!

Tiel
Any time leathel force is applied, it should be due to a threat of leatal force. And if threatened with leathel force knee caps still leave the aggressor able to shoot back, Never shoot to wound, if you need to shoot shoot to stop, that means stopping all functions, not just stopping movement.
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Old 03-03-2007, 16:28   #285
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Take it easy, take your finger off the trigger.....

Peace blinddog, I was only adding a little humor to a topic that always gets out of hand....

BTW, I like your additude and your thoughts about the subject....but it is damn hard to shoot well with your knee caps blown out!


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Old 03-03-2007, 16:39   #286
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Never been in a gun fight, but....................

Working in correction, I've seen alot of folks who should have been dropped like a stone just keep on going and going. When a 155 pound guy is pumped up and in comes five guy over 225 pounds with sticks and chains, you think you'll got it done. I've seen guys like this have batons broken over their heads and keep on fighting. Now they looked like hell a few hours later when taken to the HCU, but not during the fight.

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Old 03-04-2007, 11:33   #287
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I know of more than one case of cops getting killed by guys who should have been DRT. opne guy had thirteen rounds in his body and one through his heart as he broke a female cops neck. After telling her "you got me good that time." (Angel dust and coke is bad stuff.) Knee caps are a revenge target. Used more by organized crime to teach a lession.

My whole point is, if as a law abideing citizen, you are ever called upon to use deadly force, use it! Don't worry about if you should because if you take the time to think about, it you will be dead, so get your mental attatude at that point draw aim fire and ******** the consequences. It is better that you are still breathing and can go home to your family, than the mongrel who threatend you or some other innocent person.
And thats a fact!!!!!
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Old 03-04-2007, 17:40   #288
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Quote:
Originally posted by blinddog
I know of more than one case of cops getting killed by guys who should have been DRT. opne guy had thirteen rounds in his body and one through his heart as he broke a female cops neck. After telling her "you got me good that time." (Angel dust and coke is bad stuff.) Knee caps are a revenge target. Used more by organized crime to teach a lession.

My whole point is, if as a law abideing citizen, you are ever called upon to use deadly force, use it! Don't worry about if you should because if you take the time to think about, it you will be dead, so get your mental attatude at that point draw aim fire and ******** the consequences. It is better that you are still breathing and can go home to your family, than the mongrel who threatend you or some other innocent person.
And thats a fact!!!!!
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Old 03-11-2007, 16:39   #289
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Quote:
Originally posted by RMTactical
What stands out to me is that 10% of these guys were killed with their own weapon... :(
i don't believe for one minute that 4 rounds of .45 ammo won't stop anyone drugs or no drugs
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Old 03-12-2007, 10:38   #290
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As far as drugged up mongrels I have seen cases where the perp was shot up to fifteen and twenty times. One that stands out was the perp after shooting the male officer and being shot himself several times broke the neck of the female officer who was empting her 9MM into him one of those went through his heart witnersses heard him comment to the woman officer "you got me good that time" as he broke her neck. Do not underestimate the effect drugs or psycoses may have on a person.
Even such well documented shooting like Miami have shown multipul hit do not alays stop an attack. Likw I have said much of it is mental preperation.
In a gun fight you are very likely to get hit, it is not like TV and the movies, even a slight wound can put you down if you are not mentally ready. Remember pain is just weakness leaving your body.
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Old 03-12-2007, 10:55   #291
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ok contact the guiness book of records because if someone was shot with even a 9mm 15 times he is down for the count.in viet nam i never saw one vc hit with one round from a .45 that did not go down. who ever told you that story i blowing smoke. empty a .45 into hulk hogan on drugs and he is toast!!!!!!!
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Old 03-13-2007, 10:42   #292
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Happened outside Nashville in 1994 two sheriffs deputies responding to a domestic problem confronted the husband who was armed and jacked up on angel dust. Suspect drew handgun as male officer approched him in the bed room.gunfire was exchanged and male officer killed female then enhaged suspect who charged her grabbing her by the throat and lifting her of her feet, she continued shooting him with her 9MM semi auto hitting him in the chest and body, arriving back up heard suspect say you got me a good one that time. As he snapped the female officers neck, he then dropped dead. Autopsy recovered fifteen bullets from the suspects torso one has bisected the heart. That was from NIJ law enforcment bulliten on line of duty deaths of Law Enforcment officers.They do not blow smoke.
I have personally seen people who were jacked up doing some really remarcable things so do not discount the effects of drug abuse during a hostile confrontation.
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Old 03-13-2007, 11:11   #293
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i don't believe he was shot with 15 rounds of 9mm but there was a cop in las vegas who put 4 rounds of 9mm into a suspect and he kept coming. but i don't believe the same thing would happen with .45 hollowpoints
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Old 03-14-2007, 15:22   #294
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Quote:
Originally posted by taters
i don't believe he was shot with 15 rounds of 9mm but there was a cop in las vegas who put 4 rounds of 9mm into a suspect and he kept coming. but i don't believe the same thing would happen with .45 hollowpoints
The only thing certain about an armed engagement is that nothing is certain. You just never know if the weapon is going to work or not regardless of caliber. Your choice of weapon and ammunition just slightly increases your odds of success.

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Old 03-15-2007, 10:42   #295
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Threr ain't no such a thing as a magic bullet, no matter what the caliber of bulet type or wt. The factor of the targets ability to shed pain, as well as yours.Makes a differance. Mental attatude is a prime example. Alcohol or drug intoxication is also a big factor. Since a person who is doped up beyond understanding pain or injury, will be much more capible of ignoring pain or injury. So what it boils down to is, unless the spine is severed or major organs or bones broken, or the brain distroyed,the target is not going to stop unless its brain tells it to. sober person hit in foot= oh sH** I been shot, falls down whining like a little girl. Drugged up +hit in abdomen= ouch what wuz that, continue attack. Mental focus and attatude is what counts plus good marksmanship.
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Old 03-15-2007, 16:23   #296
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"Stopping Power"... its all relative.

Blind Dog--

You just said that in a better way than I've ever heard anyone say it before. I've got a PhD in criminal behavior with handds-on experience, and been a professor of pharmacology. You are so RIGHT ON, everyone with a CCW needs to have this burned into their brain so they understand it. Every word. This about wraps up the thread for me.

Thanks for sharing your wisdom with us.

Dr. John
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Old 03-16-2007, 09:21   #297
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I think that about wraps this thread up for me as well. I was a Police Field Training Officer, before I got into investigations. Teaching what happens is one thing but you acctually have tyo see what happens before it really gets across. I have talked to a lot of folks who have the mindset form TV and Holly wierd that a gun shot will instantly kill, or that a flesh wound is minor and will not do much of any thing. I have seen one shot kills as in DRT from a .25 auto and a guy shot in the forehead with a .45 auto who survived. And those were just two of the shootings I worked, I have a masters in Administration of Justice, while collage helps in any line of work I found that in Law Enforcment plain old common sense and experiance are worth as much or more.
I was also an EMT and instructor of Basic Life S and Support, CPR and FDirst Aid. So I know a bit about human physiology too. But I still hear guys telling me that such and such wil instantly drop a 300 lbs man, but somthing else is insufficient. It boils down to what one is able to shoot well, and how well one shoots under stress. I have seen instances of guys who shot 98's at the range emty a fifteen round mag at ten feet under stress and not hit anything but air, I have also seen guys who were barely able to qualify, make head shots at forty yards in near dark. It is all an individual thing how well one handles stress and that really cannnot be trained for.
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Old 03-21-2007, 22:11   #298
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Re: The Myth of "One Shot Stop" Percentages

Quote:
Originally posted by RMTactical
http://www.greent.com/40Page/general/defammo.htm
Couldnt help but notice, no cor bon loads on there list.
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Old 04-05-2007, 15:49   #299
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Quote:
Originally posted by taters
ok contact the guiness book of records because if someone was shot with even a 9mm 15 times he is down for the count.in viet nam i never saw one vc hit with one round from a .45 that did not go down. who ever told you that story i blowing smoke. empty a .45 into hulk hogan on drugs and he is toast!!!!!!!
That would depend on where you hit the Hulkster...

"In one case, the subject attacked the officer with a knife. The officer shot the individual four times in the chest; then, his weapon malfunctioned. The offender continued to walk toward the officer. After the officer cleared his weapon, he fired again and struck the subject in the chest. Only then did the offender drop the knife. This individual was hit five times with 230-grain, .45-caliber hollow-point ammunition and never fell to the ground. The offender later stated, 'The wounds felt like bee stings.'"

I venture to guess that if the officer had shot a .22 caliber bullet into the guy's eye socket, that would have made him drop the knife.

Its just a guess...
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Old 04-05-2007, 16:05   #300
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don't for a second believe that b.s. no one shot with a .45 4 times is gonna say damn these bee stings and keep coming. people bs why i don't know but dont believe it
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