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Old 09-07-2006, 12:48   #221
HILLSIDEBLUE
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One shot stop

In 1972 I had to shoot and kill a guy that was attacking me with the bumper jack from a car..........

I shot him once in the chest with an old fashioned, round nose, 158 grain, .38 special........That was what my department issued.....

The fact that I had the training to hit the guy in the right place was the trick to survive the attack.......

I now carry .40 caliber 180 grain loads, but I know that if the shot doesn't hit the right spot, the size of the slug doesn't matter at all..........

Practice, Practice, Practice............

If your grab, point and squeeze becomes second nature to you, you can survive a similar attack..........

It's your responsibility to be the very best shooter you can be.....
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Old 09-09-2006, 13:21   #222
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Re: One shot stop

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Originally posted by HILLSIDEBLUE
In 1972 I had to shoot and kill a guy that was attacking me with the bumper jack from a car..........

I shot him once in the chest with an old fashioned, round nose, 158 grain, .38 special........That was what my department issued.....

The fact that I had the training to hit the guy in the right place was the trick to survive the attack.......

I now carry .40 caliber 180 grain loads, but I know that if the shot doesn't hit the right spot, the size of the slug doesn't matter at all..........

Practice, Practice, Practice............

If your grab, point and squeeze becomes second nature to you, you can survive a similar attack..........

It's your responsibility to be the very best shooter you can be.....
True but better performing calibers give you a better chance of a faster stop.More exp/pen is always a plus.
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Old 09-09-2006, 16:28   #223
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Good posting Mohaa. Go with the most powerful platform you can handle with proficiency. Evan Marshall has shown one documented case where a fellon died instantly from a .44 mag. to the knee! Dont give in to the overpenetration paranoia either. The FBI has only 1 documented case in the last 30 years where a bullet that penetrated through its intended target actually caused harm to another. Also, LEO's miss their intended target 88% of the time, and civilians miss about 1/2 as much, so the fear of overpenetration is a MOOT point. The more damage and trauma you can cause with each shot that you connect with will further increase the potential to end the threat in short order which in turn increases the odds of saving lives. Shouldnt that be the #1 goal??? The .40 has been outstanding and I would expect that same excellent performance, as a minimum from the 10mm with its better loadings.

Last edited by 10mm4ever; 09-09-2006 at 18:01..
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Old 09-09-2006, 16:35   #224
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Quote:
Originally posted by gary newport
10mm makes some sense in a subgun--but the FBI doesn't use it in handguns anymore.
Sorry Gary, but that seems like backwards logic to me. In a sub-gun that can dump out 600 rpm's(that's 10 rounds per sec.), I would think that caliber becomes less important. I would think that with a semi-auto, the power level becomes more important, as you are attempting to "turn off the switch" with one round at a time, not a burst.
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Old 10-06-2006, 07:27   #225
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Quote:
Originally posted by pbass
Or as Bill Jordan used to say, "Get a bullet into your man." I'm repeating that here 'cause some view shot placement as something like choosing and hitting one of those little dots on an acupuncture chart.
What does the "rule" say..."If you are using proper two handed shooting stance, then you aren't running for cover!"

In a real world shooting, and I've only "studied" these, i haven't seen alot of shooters standing and shooting. They have been backing up, running like hell away, or hunkerd down behind cover (the BEST place in my book).

So, I would want a weapon and caliber combo (with cheese) that I can shoot with one hand quickly and accurately.

Jerry
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Old 10-15-2006, 15:43   #226
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Re: Re: Maybe they should carry 44 mags with mags safe defender ammo

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Originally posted by GoreLicks
I think you missed the point. Well placed shots, at a rapid pace with a decent caliber seems like your best bet.
Then why do most of my local, my state, the fed use something bigger than the 9?
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Old 10-15-2006, 20:35   #227
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Re: Re: Re: Maybe they should carry 44 mags with mags safe defender ammo

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Then why do most of my local, my state, the fed use something bigger than the 9?
Because there are better ballistic options out there then the 9mm that fit into the same size weapon.Less shots to stop a attack is a advantage to me.
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Old 10-15-2006, 21:14   #228
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Maybe they should carry 44 mags with mags safe defender ammo

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Originally posted by MOHAA Player
Because there are better ballistic options out there then the 9mm that fit into the same size weapon.Less shots to stop a attack is a advantage to me.
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Actually the 9mm still holds a small edge in overall use amoung leo's. There are more agencys using the 40 now but still more cops carring the 9mm. The reason is the big agencys that employ most of the people issue 9mm's. For example NYPD, Chicago PD, Philly PD, LAPD ect.

In real life the 9mm is just as good a stopper as the 40sw.
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Old 10-15-2006, 21:22   #229
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Maybe they should carry 44 mags with mags safe defender ammo

Quote:
Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Actually the 9mm still holds a small edge in overall use amoung leo's. There are more agencys using the 40 now but still more cops carring the 9mm. The reason is the big agencys that employ most of the people issue 9mm's. For example NYPD, Chicago PD, Philly PD, LAPD ect.

In real life the 9mm is just as good a stopper as the 40sw.
Pat
Actually, there are other factors that amount to "big agency's" decisions on caliber choice like cost. For those not on a limited budget there are other choices.

In real life, now that's interesting. Could you provide some concrete numbers to back that up. "In real life" never seems to go beyond the reality of certain individual's mind.
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Old 10-16-2006, 07:03   #230
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Maybe they should carry 44 mags with mags safe defender ammo

Quote:
Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Actually the 9mm still holds a small edge in overall use amoung leo's. There are more agencys using the 40 now but still more cops carring the 9mm. The reason is the big agencys that employ most of the people issue 9mm's. For example NYPD, Chicago PD, Philly PD, LAPD ect.

In real life the 9mm is just as good a stopper as the 40sw.
Pat
Listing pds in large liberal cities doesnt help your arrguement IMHO.
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Old 10-16-2006, 07:03   #231
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Maybe they should carry 44 mags with mags safe defender ammo

Quote:
Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Actually the 9mm still holds a small edge in overall use amoung leo's. There are more agencys using the 40 now but still more cops carring the 9mm. The reason is the big agencys that employ most of the people issue 9mm's. For example NYPD, Chicago PD, Philly PD, LAPD ect.

In real life the 9mm is just as good a stopper as the 40sw.
Pat
Listing pds in large liberal cities doesnt help your arrguement IMHO.
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Old 10-16-2006, 12:09   #232
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Maybe they should carry 44 mags with mags safe defender ammo

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Originally posted by thejackbull45
Listing pds in large liberal cities doesnt help your arrguement IMHO.
Who cares what the political state of the city is. Its irrelevant to the discussion. The simple fact is more cops still carry 9mm's. Rather they work in a large liberal city or in a right wing wacko small town. I find it amusing when people try to use the world liberal in the same context as evil. You must be a Rush Limbaugh fan.
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Old 10-16-2006, 12:18   #233
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Maybe they should carry 44 mags with mags safe defender ammo

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Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Who cares what the political state of the city is. Its irrelevant to the discussion. The simple fact is more cops still carry 9mm's. Rather they work in a large liberal city or in a right wing wacko small town. I find it amusing when people try to use the world liberal in the same context as evil. You must be a Rush Limbaugh fan.
Pat
Childish attacks aside. Politics can play an integral part of a weapon platform choice. This really is no secret.
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Old 10-16-2006, 12:26   #234
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Maybe they should carry 44 mags with mags safe defender ammo

Quote:
Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Who cares what the political state of the city is. Its irrelevant to the discussion. The simple fact is more cops still carry 9mm's. Rather they work in a large liberal city or in a right wing wacko small town. I find it amusing when people try to use the world liberal in the same context as evil. You must be a Rush Limbaugh fan.
Pat

The fact that these cities are liberal is a fact AND pertenent to the discussion. Lib cities are afraid of guns in the hands of citizens and police.

Its sad how you are ashamed of the liberal lable and have to insult people with views different than yours. Liberal does mean no guns which is why the term was used.

Lastly, DITTO.
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Old 10-16-2006, 12:36   #235
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Maybe they should carry 44 mags with mags safe defend

Quote:
Originally posted by thejackbull45
The fact that these cities are liberal is a fact AND pertenent to the discussion. Lib cities are afraid of guns in the hands of citizens and police.

Its sad how you are ashamed of the liberal lable and have to insult people with views different than yours. Liberal does mean no guns which is why the term was used.

Lastly, DITTO.
Actually the term liberal has nothing to do with guns. Go take a political science course. The term has been perverted by the right wing consiracy tin foil hat crowd. In the most pure sence under a liberal govt you would have more rights including gun rights. Get out a dictionary and look up the words liberal and conservative.
Pat
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Old 10-16-2006, 12:41   #236
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Maybe they should carry 44 mags with mags safe defend

Quote:
Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Actually the term liberal has nothing to do with guns. Go take a political science course. The term has been perverted by the right wing consiracy tin foil hat crowd. In the most pure sence under a liberal govt you would have more rights including gun rights. Get out a dictionary and look up the words liberal and conservative.
Pat

Ok lets call them the left, does that make you feel better?

So you would agree that the right is more liberal then the left.
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Old 10-16-2006, 13:05   #237
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This argument is really pointless unless you understand the purchasing procedures large agencies go through before issuing a new side arm. Many times "stopping power" is the least considered issue.
What it really boils down to is that NO HANDGUN WILL IMEDIATLY STOP AN ATTACKER unless the CNS is involved. So for a defensive handgun you need the penitration to enter deeply enough to pass nearly through the body to involve the spine. Knocking out hthe pump will still give a determined attacker a few seconds, even as much as a couple minutes to do you harm.
The CNS has got to be cut to get a fast one shot stop period. If the caliber is that important then the .22 rimfire would be the primere round as more peoplr are killed with them than any other, in the US anyway.
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Old 10-21-2006, 11:21   #238
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although i argue more often than not for a deep penetrating, heavy for caliber bullets.....

i am starting to consider that what is involved in a one shot stop, may be more than this.

although i still believe that a spinal or brain shot is the only instant stop, there MAY be other things that would be able to contribute to a stop(perhaps not even a lethal hit).

i am considering a few things and running tests as time and funds allow. super high speed .357mag and sig(double tap/corbon) may have the ability to stop an attacker quickly (not nessesarily a lethal hit) by the "punch" effect. what i mean is that even given equal penetration, the high velocity and temporary disruption MAY lead to someone stopping their "fight/will to continue" with a less than lethal hit.

somes tests i have completed show the devistating effect on water jugs from high velocity. while i am not sure of the effect on living tissue, i feel i cannot discount it entirely.

a 125gr .357mag sjhp has a terrific effect on the first and second jugs and the core continues into the 3rd jug. a .45acp 230gr has a much less dramatic entry, but will more often than not continue into or exit the fourth jug. these are the two extremes as far as my testing and what i consider for defense.

here is the question in my mind(which i will be answering for myself, i am not looking to argue or preach)
which will cause the best hope of a instant or really fast stop?

in my case, 9mm is my usual choice so because of my preference for heavy/slow projectiles, i use 147gr rangerT. i use fmj in my p3at so i can be sure it goes deep, and in .45 i always opt for 230gr.
i am trying to figure out FOR ME, if i need to consider a round that goes deep, but has high velocity to also have a chance to cause this "punch" effect.

this is all something each of us has to get right for ourselves. i will update when i decide.
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Old 10-21-2006, 12:31   #239
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Recoil Factor

A lot of people talk about the "punch" of a bullet when it strikes the bad guy...........

The punch he feels is exactly equal to the recoil you feel when firing the round..........Newton's law says that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.......There's no way around that..........

Shot placement is the only thing important in stopping an attacker......Hit him in the right place and he will drop from shock, blood loss or loss of control, like a shot to the brain stem........

Spend time practicing your shooting......If shooting water bottles is fun that's fine......It makes you learn how to hit a target where you want..........The big splash is fun to watch, but it is more important to know that you can hit the bad guy without loosing your cool and continue to hit him until he falls....That takes training and practice.....

Most of these tests that are run by ammo manufactures are meant to sell ammo to people........In the real world they don't really mean much.......A good quality round that is reliable and accurate is more important than knowing how many water bottles it will go through.....Just my opinion, I mean no disrespect.....

John

Last edited by HILLSIDEBLUE; 10-21-2006 at 12:36..
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Old 10-21-2006, 13:14   #240
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i agree with everything you said except...
the "punch" i am refering to is caused by the high velocity of the projectile pushing water and tissue away in a violent manner. this is not equal to what the shooter feels in recoil though the actual energy numbers may be shown/interpreted to be the same.

many times a person is quoted as saying "i didnt even know i had been shot". what i will figure out for MYSELF is if i believe a higher velocity projectile with a more violent disruption of tissue will cause a person to "give up fighting" or decide quicker that "wow that hurts, i need to get out of here"

i am not joining the light/fast crowd but just am doing a little testing to see if the concept has merit. meanwhile, ra9t at just under 1000fps is still my choice.

i am a hard arguer for heavy/slow and have been in some heated discussions here. but i am not closed minded to some exploration.
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