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Old 12-22-2006, 06:11   #261
PBR Sailor
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Quote:
Originally posted by gary newport
Interestingly, Mas Ayoob described a pelvic shooting in his American Handgunner column a few months back. A lady NYC cop shot a knife-wielding BG once in the pelvis with a Gold Dot 124 +p 9mm round, taking him down -- and out of the fight.

The question before the court is: should the pelvis of an attacker be considered a desirable target for defense with a handgun? If so, when?
The question should not be decided by the court. Any application of deadly force to any part of the body should be determined by the defender when legally justified to use deadly force. The first priority should be rapid incapacitation, with the second priority being what part of the target is exposed and easier to hit when putting rounds on the problem. You don't always get to choose what is available for a target area.

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Old 12-22-2006, 15:18   #262
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Quote:
Originally posted by PBR Sailor
The question should not be decided by the court. Any application of deadly force to any part of the body should be determined by the defender when legally justified to use deadly force. The first priority should be rapid incapacitation, with the second priority being what part of the target is exposed and easier to hit when putting rounds on the problem. You don't always get to choose what is available for a target area.

I used "court" as a metaphor; the question "before the court" was directed to participants in this thread and had NOTHING to do with law courts!
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Old 12-22-2006, 16:26   #263
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Bullet to the crotch works for me that will incapacitate pretty much any one. But what force can the perp then use? While the pelvis will put them down it will not put them out. Had this suspect been armed with any thing more lethal than a knife then the oficer was putting herself in danger since she still has to make an approch and restrain the suspect.
If she was justified in useing deadly force then she should have gone all the way, unless the Crotch/Pelvis was the only target avalible.
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Old 01-04-2007, 11:07   #264
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My natural reaction would be to aim for the most stationary parts of the body, and aim low. The head can move independant of the body and taking the time to go for an atypical movielike headshot, may give the aggressor all the time he needs to kill you(remember, he's throwing bullets as well)?? Once a bullet enters the pelvis, it's surrounded by a rounded bone structure so it should be expected to ricochet around causing damage to a variety of "sensative" organs. I cant imagine a better, more painful area to put a bullet into, if you want the attacker to stop.
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Old 01-16-2007, 21:35   #265
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Quote:
Originally posted by 10mm4ever
My natural reaction would be to aim for the most stationary parts of the body, and aim low. The head can move independant of the body and taking the time to go for an atypical movielike headshot, may give the aggressor all the time he needs to kill you(remember, he's throwing bullets as well)?? Once a bullet enters the pelvis, it's surrounded by a rounded bone structure so it should be expected to ricochet around causing damage to a variety of "sensative" organs. I cant imagine a better, more painful area to put a bullet into, if you want the attacker to stop.
+1

I'm gonna take a shot at whatevers exposed. Peferably COM especially a good thoracic triangle shot, but hey if I have to shoot 'em in the foot I'll take what I can get.

Ideally you'd like to put them away quickly, but even if you can just slow them down or do them an injury it improves your own chances of winning or getting away alive. I'm not a cop I don't have to take them into custody, if a shot to the pelvis or legs takes away their mobility that's a definite plus for me.

Still I'd go for a chest shot the higher the better given the oppurtunity. You might still take out a shoulder or disable an arm even if you're off a bit.
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Old 01-18-2007, 19:28   #266
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Why do you think the latest AFQC is double tap at center mass, then one shot to head. The threat HAS to be STOPPED ASAP. You react the way you train and you train so that you can react...
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Old 01-18-2007, 19:43   #267
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Quote:
Originally posted by agentl074
Why do you think the latest AFQC is double tap at center mass, then one shot to head. The threat HAS to be STOPPED ASAP. You react the way you train and you train so that you can react...
Actually thats more of an older AFQC. We still train that way in our quals but I belive the zipper method is better, Start at com and walk your rounds up to the head repeat as necessary. You can usually get more ammo on target in the same amount of time this way.
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Old 01-18-2007, 21:13   #268
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Is that like walkin the dog up the alley?
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Old 01-24-2007, 00:16   #269
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Quote:
Originally posted by sneakyracer
"These offenders did not care about bullet weight or velocity. The majority of the offenders in both studies had been involved in prior shootings before assaulting or killing the officers. Their major concern was being “fast on the trigger” and delivering the bullet to its intended target. One stated, “There’s no time to sight up the gun. If you hesitate, you’re dead.
"

exactly why i think QK and point shooting training is paramount
That's why I don't like big bores. Target reaquisition is a *****. 9s are better for me in a heavier gun.
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Old 01-24-2007, 02:17   #270
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One shot stop ? Yeah, right! Like many of the people who posted on this thread have pointed out, one shot won't get the job done most of the time, regardless of caliber. Too much television is a bad thing and I wish people were more aware of the real world on this subject.

Good general rules for a firefight, regardless of choice of firearm, are:

1) Put a sufficient number of rounds on the problem to neutralize/minimize the threat. I don't believe anyone knows how many rounds that may be.

2) Don't break cover right away. The threat could just be injured and waiting to ambush you. Like Mom always said, patience is a virtue.

3) If you are alone and if possible, get help on scene before approaching the threat after the armed engagement.

Remember, hero is a name for a great sandwich and the term hero does not apply in a real world firefight. Don't be a sandwich or you'll get eaten alive !!!!!
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Old 01-24-2007, 14:56   #271
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2 in the chest 1 in the head and the rest whereever they hit till he stops twitching
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Old 01-28-2007, 22:58   #272
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Army switch to .45's

Part One: Regarding the story of the .38 not stopping the Filipino's being the reason the army went looking for a larger round. My understanding is that in those days, the Cavalry were the elites, and what they wanted was a round that would put down a HORSE. So they went big bore. This I just read in G&A special issue on the 1911. I confess, I'm a .45 man, JHPs.

Part Two:
As for bullet placement, here's my perspective and training ritual after spending 15 years working inner city trauma ER. Aim upper chest straight on a line to his spine and walk up to the head until he drops.


Why? The thing that DROPS a man is to destroy the spinal cord or brain. Midline shots not only hit the great vessels in the thorax, but also have a higher probability of striking the spine.

In the trauma room, its trauma to the great vessels in the thorax (including the hear), plus dropped lungs that are the #2 quick killer. #1 is brain trauma. Actually brain shots don't KILL them as quickly, but they do put them out of action.

From the side, face shots are no good. You gotta hit the brain case.
I had a guy come in the door who had shot off his entire jaw, tongue, and nose with a 12 ga he'd put under his chin to attempt suicide... He was wide awake!

Gut shots, low chest shots, these guys can walk for miles.

BTW, with my last round in my mag, I DO train to go for the pelvis. From any angle, cracking the pelvis destroys the support structure required for the legs to support body weight. Those guys drop.


Just curious. Anyone out there want to confess to training themselves to focus on headshots as the main target?

I wish there were a good way to test that in the field. Hmmm....


Great thread, BTW.....
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Old 01-29-2007, 15:37   #273
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Long before I retired I worked on an HRT squad we had to qualify for it makeing a head shot at a run.
The course of fire was a modified El Presidente after a run of half mile the final stage being a BG behind several hostages only the head showing. We never knew how many targets we would be presented with during the run or what the range would be at the hostage this was done in full gear Pistol and long gun, the head shot was always set up as a pistol shot though. Usually as you cleared a corner or other obstruction. We did that four or five times a year, besides regular qualifacation. But HRT did it in any weather from 105 summer to 10 below indchill and snow and ice.
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Old 01-29-2007, 17:44   #274
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Head shots

So I take it that you were able to reliably make your head shots. Can we imply then that give sufficient training, making the head your primary target is a practical choice, even under high stress conditions? I assumed you qualified each time.

So, translating that to a personal self-defense situation, and the BG was likely to hurt someone if he wasn't neutralized ASAP, would you make all your shots to the head? If not, why not?

Sorry for all the questions, but my "hobby" the study of close quarters combatives, and I'm always trying to get ideas and information from as many people as possible.

Thanks,

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Old 01-30-2007, 14:15   #275
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I guess your question was directed at me. Mainly no a head shot is not a good choice becase the head moves, for defensive use the largest part of the body is ALWAYS the best target,and multiple hits are ALWAYS desirable. Just be able to articulate what you shot the perp several times. Remember you shoot someone to stop the threat they pose to you or others, if you have to shoot them several times to make sure the threat was stopped then so be it, just be ready for the Monday Morning quarterbacks.
I was trained for possible Hostage rescue worst case conditions. No I did not qualify every time first time around, but training is not real life so when you screw up in training you do it over til it is done right. The way we were trained was to simulate stress so we ran and jumped barracades and crawled through and over obsticals with the simulation being set up differant each time, Our training officer devised things to make us think on our feet.
Load out was besides body armor, a pistol with two loaded mags Glock 21 40 rds of 45 ACP, a long gun and fifty-ninety rounds, could be shotgun, or AR. We were not intended to be in any long term shoot outs, till after Hollywood happened then the ammo load was doubled for the long guns. our course of fire was at the county Sheriffs Farm out in a wooded pasture we set up/ Built a tire house with four rooms and two exits that was always a part of the training with somtimes several targets set up somtimes citizens ( if you are familiar with the shoot no shoot type targets you understand what I mean) the training was set up so we had to transition alll through the course of fire and we were timed with a limit so if it was a quarter mile we got maybe three or four minutes to complete the course of fire. For saftey this was run individually. We also did team entry stuff.Like I have said before with a hand gun there is no such thing as a one shot stop. Unless you feel you may have a need to get that level of profficiancy, the time and expence is really not woth the effort. If however you are in a line of work that puts you in harms way then by all means get as much training as you can, and use every means to get more.
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Old 01-30-2007, 15:12   #276
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Head shots

Blind Dog,

Thank you for that very enlightening description. The way you explain it makes perfect sense. I see you carried a lot of ammo. That tells me a lot right there. The thing you said that really struck me, and will stick with me is "the handgun is not a one shot stop weapon", or words to that effect. Its good to have that already burned into the core of your brain so you don't stop shooting too early.

Reminds me of the joke about the guy who is on trial for murder after a legitimate shooting of an armed intruder into his home at night:

Prosecutor: Mr. Jones, the forensic evidence reveals you shot this man 15 times with a powerful 9mm handgun filled with those hi-tech expanding bullets! Fifteen times! That's just vicious, reprehensible behavior. Why on earth would you shoot this man 15 times?

Defendant: Because that's all I had, and I ran out of ammunition.

++++++++++

I'm sure you've heard it before. But it really illustrates the gap between citizen perceptions and the reality of the legitimate use of deadly force to save lives. We end up painted as the bad guys, after putting ourselves in harm's way to save the lives of others from career criminals. What a world. I'm grateful guys like you are out there.
Thanks.
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Old 01-30-2007, 16:14   #277
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When I first got into Law Enforcment in the late nineteen seventies. One of my first fireams training officers told the class and I quote.
"Now a days we are useing the 357 Hollow point, used to be a few years ago we only got 38 spl. round nosed. This was as true then as it is now" No matter what you shoot the bad guy with keep pulling the trigger till they stop kicking" "If they are still kicking they can still hurt you"

The moral of that is that with the energy delivered from any hand gun round one will not always stop an opponent period. I do not care what any one says about any of the new wonder bullets they will not instantly stop an attack. As long as an attacker ( someone who wants to kill you) can pull a trigger you are in danger.
I talked before about training, that is only part of it, you have to have the will to kill another human also or all the training in the world will not save your ***.
Will is a very individual thing many folks(good and bad) have been shot several times and still had the will to continue. Others get aminor injury and fall apart. That is all will.
To injure or kill another human is a very hard thing, our culture trains us almost from birth, to respect life, and to not do hurt to another life without good cause.Training only addresses part of that.
SO IF YOU CARRY FOR SELF DEFENSE THAT IS A QUESTION YOU HAVE TO COME TO GRIPS WITH BEFORE THE REAL THING HAPPENS.
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Old 01-30-2007, 18:50   #278
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One shot drop... WILL TO ENGAGE

Blind Dog,

This has probably evolved into another thread, but I'll end this with my corresponding experience.
I've been teaching unarmed self-defense for a long time now. I ALWAYS took into account the factor of emotional/ethical/psychological capacity to harm another human, even one who was about to do horrible things to their loved ones.
I've had a lot of students who could learn the techniques, but when I put them in the scenario where they really had to let their violence out, they just couldn't do it. With more training, Most of them eventually broke through it. (I'm a retired psychologist as well, so I know a few tricks). But there were a few who just couldn't bring themselves to terminate someone, even in a (pretty realistic) training scenario.
Some sheep can't help but stay sheep. Maybe that's a good thing.
Over and out on this topic for me.

John
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Old 01-30-2007, 19:05   #279
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The head shot is a good choice when shots to com are not working. The reason could either be body armor or simply the person is amped up or on drugs. The only way to stop the fight quickly is a CNS hit. If you can hit the head then try the pelvis. But to say the head is always a bad target is not correct.
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Old 01-31-2007, 12:32   #280
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I never said the head was a bad target, just a difficult one. More so under the amount of stress involved in a self defensive context.
I did say that shooting for the largest body part and shooting multipul times was, in most cases a better option. Or as the old saying goes empty the gun, if he is still kicking reload
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