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Old 02-28-2008, 07:21   #401
Dr. Courtney
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Situational awareness, knowing where the cover is, and having a good plan to move and avoid incoming fire for the 5-10 seconds it takes most handgun bullets to create physiological incapacitation is more important than the relatively small performance differences between most service caliber JHP loads.

Don't get me wrong, some loads are better than others in given applications and choosing a load wisely confers a slight advantage in a deadly force encounter. However, this advantage pales in comparison by the advantages conferred by seeing the event coming before it happens, using cover well, and using movement optimally.

When I'm in public, I'm usually quick to recognize potential criminal actors, stuff I can use for cover if a shootout breaks out, and how I can quickly exit the scene and/or put distance between me and trouble.

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Old 02-28-2008, 07:28   #402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Courtney View Post
Situational awareness, knowing where the cover is, and having a good plan to move and avoid incoming fire for the 5-10 seconds it takes most handgun bullets to create physiological incapacitation is more important than the relatively small performance differences between most service caliber JHP loads.

Don't get me wrong, some loads are better than others in given applications and choosing a load wisely confers a slight advantage in a deadly force encounter. However, this advantage pales in comparison by the advantages conferred by seeing the event coming before it happens, using cover well, and using movement optimally.

When I'm in public, I'm usually quick to recognize potential criminal actors, stuff I can use for cover if a shootout breaks out, and how I can quickly exit the scene and/or put distance between me and trouble.

Michael Courtney
Excellent advice. Training and tactics trumps caliber everytime. With the proper level of training, awareness, and mindset, you'll never even need a gun.
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Old 02-29-2008, 09:35   #403
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I REALLY like and agree completely with this piece of advice too.
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Old 03-02-2008, 01:36   #404
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Wow. I've read through these pages and all I can say is, "Wow." It almost makes you feel like owning a gun is useless. Might as well carry a cannon around in a red wagon behind you all day, as maybe that could drop someone.

I will add, though, that a lot of the research I've read here applies more to LEOs than regular citizens, because the distance is a big issue. It's shots from a bit farther away. If in "defense" you drop someone at over 15 to 20 feet, it will become more difficult to get out of the jury room for it. And many rounds are effective at close range.
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Old 03-02-2008, 11:40   #405
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well since my glock 36 with 180 corbon dpx might not stop a bg. i guess i am gonna just have to go and get a 500 smith&weson. of course i am sure i will get plenty of responses here that will tell me they personally know of cases where it did not do the job either.
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Old 03-22-2008, 13:24   #406
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THe internet has a tendency to fog or overblow things. I feel pretty confident I can stop an intruder with my glock 17. Just because there are occasional incidents where a handgun didnt stop a BD, doesn't mean a handgun is ineffective. 99% of the bad guys you run into will be stopped by a 9 mm and a good shooter. Don't let that 1% make this something it's not.
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Old 03-29-2008, 22:39   #407
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Interesting article, I had not read this one. This provides some data suggesting 9mm and .38/.380 is as dangerous as .40/.45/.357mag. One could say the raw numbers could be skewed towards 9mm and 38 as more criminals use them however I took some additional data from the article below which suggests otherwise:

"JUNE 2004 43:6 ANNALS OF EMERGENCY MEDICINE The Life Cycle of Crime Guns: A Description Based on Guns Recovered From Young People
in California" Which is based on data from 1999 (about the same years as this studys data is from)

Turns out in CA in 1999 handguns recovered were 49.5% (.380, .38, 9mm) vs 19.5% (.40, .45,.357) so relative weights of about 5 and 2 respectively.

So 244 (.38, .380, 9mm) /5 = 48.8
and 100 (.40, .45, .357) /2 = 50

Same weighted average.

Interestingly smaller calibers 55 (.32, .25, .22) /3 = 18.3
suggesting you are far more likely to survive someone shooting at you with them.

All stats hold number of shots fired indipendent, as no data was in either article so who knows maybe the felons who used 9mm's tended to shoot more, but that dosent make the outcome less significant.

A 9mm or .38 turns out to be just as dangerous in the hands of a criminal as a .40/.45/.357

(I have little bias in this as I shoot .357 sig/ .40/.45)
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Old 04-08-2008, 23:06   #408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacG22 View Post
Wow. I've read through these pages and all I can say is, "Wow." It almost makes you feel like owning a gun is useless. Might as well carry a cannon around in a red wagon behind you all day, as maybe that could drop someone.
I don't see that.

Most of the time, one shot is all that it will take I am willing to bet. However, no two shootouts are exactly alike, and neither are any two criminals. One may fall to the ground and die instantly after one shot, another may get shot 6-7 times COM and still keep fighting...

It's a variable that simply cannot be accounted for prior to the fight, so you must go into the fight ready to empty your mag...
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Old 04-14-2008, 15:01   #409
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Very interesting reading. It should be mandatory for all Concealed carry classes.
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Old 04-30-2008, 17:21   #410
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It all seems to fall back to the good ole .45ACP












And the shooter of course!
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Old 06-11-2008, 14:17   #411
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It comes full circle to the .45acp. Still the king. :D

Okay dont flame me! BUT I carry .45acp and hope I never need it. They will all work if placed well is what all the people "in the know" seem to say. Stay safe to all!
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Old 08-04-2008, 13:51   #412
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Tis too bad those of us with morals and a sense of responsibility will only fire a couple of rounds to center mass and HOPE the fool stops or drops. I was told that I had no need for a 13 round magazine, seems I do huh?
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Old 08-10-2008, 17:29   #413
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Wow. I've read through these pages and all I can say is, "Wow." It almost makes you feel like owning a gun is useless. Might as well carry a cannon around in a red wagon behind you all day, as maybe that could drop someone.
Don't believe the internet hype,I've read stories on the internet posted of people taking 14 45acp's to the chest and not dropping,if you believe these stories I have a bridge for sale named Walt Whitman
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Old 08-30-2008, 22:22   #414
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As soon as my kids are old enough to be trusted I'll keep a 12 gauge in the bedroom.
In the meantime I'll continue practicing weekly at the range and keeping my Glocks in the Gunvaults.
It is scary though how ineffective a handgun can be.

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Old 09-14-2008, 17:06   #415
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These reports are skewed! What happens most of the time when someone is struck at center mass by a bullet is that he or she will stop; they may not drop dead on the spot, but they will stop their assault. Because that is the most common response to being struck at center mass, we don't hear reports of this. Why give a report on anything that is not out of the ordinary. For example, no news channel gives a report on the millions of drivers who make it home safely on any given day of the week; they only report on the driver who crashed his car.

Along those same lines, it is highly likely and even imminent that someone will report the rare and extraordinary occasion when someone is struck at center mass by a bullet and appears to be unaffected.

Unfortunately, many persons, including gun owners and potential gun owners, accept this specious reasoning as truth and become more apt to relinquish their arms or become lackadaisical in defending their right to own as they have been convinced that their firearm is useless.

Have confidence in your firearm and rest assured that a round to center mass is most likely going to stop any assailant. And in the rare event that it does not, a round to the head will!
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Old 09-22-2008, 22:06   #416
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Yep, so don't stop shooting!!!
I don't see the point with all the hype about one shot stoppers. If it's worth my engaging, I'm going to unload my entire magazine on the SOB, so who would know which one dropped him?
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Old 10-22-2008, 23:50   #417
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What I'd like to know is why more LEO don't carry 12 gauges loaded with buckshot and then use a handgun as backup if need be ? I realize this would be less than ideal for doing something such as a traffic stop, unless there was more than one LEO making the stop. In a case such as responding to a call at a residence though, where LEOS would have to infiltrate a house,for example, why not use a 12 gauge ? They easily cover more area and inflict a hell of alot more damage than any handgun. I'd like to see the numbers if they were to incorporate 12 gauges loaded with 3 inch buckshot into the equation.
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Old 10-28-2008, 21:10   #418
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Notice also that the FBI article discusses 1-shot fail-to-stops without breaking down which caliber the LEO was using against the assailants.

It also suggests (probably inadvertently) that the officer's fatality happened right there at the scene with these little-caliber weapons like the .25 which we know doesn't happen all the time. You can die from snakes but they make poor defensive weapons for quick incapacitation. (one-bite stops).

This leads the reader to start thinking that all bullet calibers perform more or less the same.
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Old 11-09-2008, 12:42   #419
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All I know is when I was in the Navy, I carried a 45ACP as a sidearm. I used regular 230 grain ball ammo most of the time. 185 grain JHP later in my years. I can say that not even one bad guy got up after being double tapped in the chest. One shot if it was a head shot. I still carry my 45 and use regular old 230 grain ball ammo. I have never tried these new high tech ammo in battle. With all the junk on the internet, you would think someone would have real life experiences to convey. Since I have not seen any I am doubtful. Animals are one thing, some hyped up bad guy is another.

Stan
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Old 11-09-2008, 20:52   #420
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Originally Posted by stanlyonjr View Post
All I know is when I was in the Navy, I carried a 45ACP as a sidearm. I used regular 230 grain ball ammo most of the time. 185 grain JHP later in my years. I can say that not even one bad guy got up after being double tapped in the chest. One shot if it was a head shot. I still carry my 45 and use regular old 230 grain ball ammo. I have never tried these new high tech ammo in battle. With all the junk on the internet, you would think someone would have real life experiences to convey. Since I have not seen any I am doubtful. Animals are one thing, some hyped up bad guy is another.

Stan
I'm sure there is plenty of real-world evidence published by reputable sources to back up all the so-called "hype" surrounding new-age hollowpoint bullets. Your interest and your time are the only things holding you back from finding it on the Internet.

Last edited by Wasatch; 11-30-2008 at 19:55..
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Old 11-09-2008, 21:10   #421
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Exactly.

Shoot, and shoot often. Secret Service agents qualify everyday when they go into work. Being proficient with your weapon is what will make the difference. Aiming at the COM, not just the whole body as a target.
Um.....I have a friend who is on the PPD and he does not qualify every day. Qualification takes about three or four hours.......

Not sure where you got the info, but it is incorrect.
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Old 11-09-2008, 21:13   #422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanlyonjr View Post
All I know is when I was in the Navy, I carried a 45ACP as a sidearm. I used regular 230 grain ball ammo most of the time. 185 grain JHP later in my years. I can say that not even one bad guy got up after being double tapped in the chest. One shot if it was a head shot. I still carry my 45 and use regular old 230 grain ball ammo. I have never tried these new high tech ammo in battle. With all the junk on the internet, you would think someone would have real life experiences to convey. Since I have not seen any I am doubtful. Animals are one thing, some hyped up bad guy is another.

Stan
Penetration, penetration, penetration.

If expansion happens that is a plus, but the bullet has to get deep enough to mess things up inside.

In .45 I use Corbon 230 gr. It SHOULD have the weight to penetrate and if it expands that is even better.
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Old 11-09-2008, 21:15   #423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glocker08 View Post
What I'd like to know is why more LEO don't carry 12 gauges loaded with buckshot and then use a handgun as backup if need be ? I realize this would be less than ideal for doing something such as a traffic stop, unless there was more than one LEO making the stop. In a case such as responding to a call at a residence though, where LEOS would have to infiltrate a house,for example, why not use a 12 gauge ? They easily cover more area and inflict a hell of alot more damage than any handgun. I'd like to see the numbers if they were to incorporate 12 gauges loaded with 3 inch buckshot into the equation.
Do you realize how much harder it is to retain a long gun? What about running, jumping fences etc with a shotgun??????
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Old 11-19-2008, 00:48   #424
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Old 11-30-2008, 11:15   #425
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"Your actual mileage may vary"?

I guess, it all depends . . . over 35 years of shooting has taught me that.

But if we look deeper, I think we can agree on a number of points:

1. Each shooting incident is unique, even idiosyncratic. There are so many variables: caliber, ammunition performance, clothing, distance, shot placement, the angle of target presentation, perp's state of mind/body, even timing of multiple shots. Years of hunting with both rifles and handguns, on small and medium game (deer and black bear) has taught me this over and over again. No two shots are ever the same.

2. Bullet placement (assuming any adequate SD round that can penetrate and expand) is paramount. This is where the old saying, "Take your time, fast" speaks a whole volume of truth. Since bullet placement is difficult to assure and ascertain, it means we have to shoot each threat several times before making any assessment of whether the threat has been neutralized. Again, hunting taught this lesson to me: make the first shot as perfect as possible, then pop 'em a second time as quickly and accurately as possible. With practice, the second shot placement can be pretty good. Knowing I could learn to work a bolt action this way, made me believe I could learn to make both accurate and speedy follow-up shots with a handgun.

3. Practice is vital to making the shooter/gun/ammo combination work. Years of bullseye competition, in which I reached a Master classification and won state championships, taught me that when I couldn't get to the range, I could dry-fire. Squeeze of ten PERFECT "shots" every day. Every day. For carry, that means, "from the concealed holster." In real life, we all will shoot as we practice, only at the lowest level we achieve in practice. As someone said, "Only perfect practice makes perfect." And lots of it. Thousands of repetitions.

4. Accuracy must be balanced against the need for speed, but accuracy isn't just for head shots at 25 yards anymore. Jeff Cooper argued that a competent shooter should work to a point where he or she NEVER misses, say, an 8-inch target at at ten yards. (And when you honestly get to that point, cut it down to a 6-inch target or extend it out to 8-inches at about 12 yards, as your next goal.)


Now, not all will agree with what follows.

I think that handgun shooting has suffered now that fewer handgunners come from or participate in other shooting sports - sheet shooting or trap teaches what speed, timing, and moving targets are all about; riflry teaches position, real accuracy, and absolute control of your firearm.

Also, in my life, I started with rifles and then I happened upon bullseye shooting before I got into serious self-defense. I am grateful for that. Bullseye can't substitute for IDPA, but it has a lot to offer in developing deeply-set good gun handling skills. (Try hitting the x-ring with 5 rounds of .45 ACP ball in 10 seconds at 50 yards, strong-hand only; it's a trade off of speed versus accuracy - does that sound familiar?)

I think it was easier to add combat speed and tactical skills to a firm bullseye foundation of accuracy based on long experience of struggling with issues of trigger control, sight picture, and timing. As a volunteer, state- and NRA-certified pistol instructor, I'd say this is a good approach for anyone wanting to learn SD shooting, if they have time. Buy a decent .22 in the same action-type as your carry piece, and shoot a few bricks or more of this cheap ammo every six to twelve months. Get a good holster for it, too. Work on sight picture and trigger control, and let speed come as it will. (Quality air pistols can have a role here, too.)

In addition to IDPA (and bullseye), try hunting with a handgun. Rabbit and squirrel with a .38 Special (head shots only, if you please,and use a wadcutter), or deer with a .41 or .44 Magnum, or lesser rounds if close, careful shots are taken; or try woodchucks at 50 yards with your favorite cartridge from a sitting or prone position. Again, like bullseye, this is not a substitute for lots of practice, or IDPA-type competition, but will teach you unique lessons. Taking any life involves a moment of truth, and much later reflection, at least for me. And hunting teaches you to almost automatically use concealment and a variety of positions (or "shooting platforms").

So practice, be accurate but fast, use a .22, hunt if you can, and dry fire a lot. Actually can be fun!

This has been an interesting thread, one to reflect on more. Thanks to all, and I apologize if my comments are too lengthy.

Brian

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