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Old 06-15-2005, 10:23   #26
jimco
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BUT even you admit, the "one shot stop" (you shoot somebody once and they stop) is a myth, and as a unit of measure, the percentages are all but meaningless and misused when it comes to any real world application (other than, of course, selling magazine articles and books).

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Old 06-15-2005, 15:56   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by jimco
BUT even you admit, the "one shot stop" (you shoot somebody once and they stop) is a myth, and as a unit of measure, the percentages are all but meaningless and misused when it comes to any real world application (other than, of course, selling magazine articles and books).
...and ammo.
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Old 06-15-2005, 16:42   #28
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Yep! CorBon and Triton have probably both benefitted greatly from some of those gunrag articles. In fact, a few of those "articles" should have been billed as "infomercials" rather than articles.
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Old 06-16-2005, 01:40   #29
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When in doubt,
empty the mag! ;f
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Old 06-16-2005, 06:25   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by sneakyracer
"These offenders did not care about bullet weight or velocity. The majority of the offenders in both studies had been involved in prior shootings before assaulting or killing the officers. Their major concern was being “fast on the trigger” and delivering the bullet to its intended target. One stated, “There’s no time to sight up the gun. If you hesitate, you’re dead.
"

exactly why i think QK and point shooting training is paramount
If you miss your dead. There is a difference between hesitating because your not mentally ready to shoot someone and taking enough time to make well placed shots. Point shooting works great if your close enough to touch the bad guy past that it sucks.
Pat
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Old 06-16-2005, 06:26   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by 355sigfan
If you miss your dead. There is a difference between hesitating because your not mentally ready to shoot someone and taking enough time to make well placed shots. Point shooting works great if your close enough to touch the bad guy past that it sucks.

Two to the chest 1 to the head repeat as needed.
Pat
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Old 06-16-2005, 12:30   #32
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I've been shot twice in hunting accidents. One I didn't even feel, one hurt really, really badly. The one that hurt more was superficial, the one I didn't even feel was not superficial, to say the least.
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Old 06-16-2005, 13:03   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by another okie
I've been shot twice in hunting accidents. One I didn't even feel, one hurt really, really badly. The one that hurt more was superficial, the one I didn't even feel was not superficial, to say the least.
Twice!? ;P

I don't mean to offend you, but do you have an 8-point rack growing out of your head or something? ;e

I'm glad you're OK though. There's another one for "stopping power", as I'm sure whoever shot you wasn't using a hyper-powerful 10mm handgun cartridge with an astounding 650 ft-lbs of energy. It was probably just a measly .243 Winchester with only 2200 ft-lbs that you didn't even feel...

Jeff
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Old 06-16-2005, 13:24   #34
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TWICE? Remind me to never share a stand with you!
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Old 06-16-2005, 20:08   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by another okie
I've been shot twice in hunting accidents. One I didn't even feel, one hurt really, really badly. The one that hurt more was superficial, the one I didn't even feel was not superficial, to say the least.
Who shot you? your friends? and if so do you still go hunting with them? Safety first
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Old 06-16-2005, 20:27   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Linh40
Who shot you? your friends? and if so do you still go hunting with them? Safety first
No kidding, and what were you shot WITH?
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Old 06-19-2005, 08:00   #37
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What most reports lack.

2 to the chest then 1 to the head survivors.And any caliber will do.;c
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Old 06-19-2005, 16:36   #38
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I was taught to keep shooting until the threat is neutralized. I taught that same philosophy to my students for 15 years.

Another thing that bugs me. Marshall and Fackler both have some good ideas. If they would work together, and BOTH be willing to give up preconceived notions, we would all be better off.

It seems to me that BOTH of them, are so damned busy trying to "prove" their preconceived notions that they are blinded to any information that doesn't fit those notions.

They're both potentially good researchers. What a pity they both put petty jealousies before the advance of knowledge.:(
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Old 06-19-2005, 21:48   #39
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i know an old guy who was shot once w/ a .45 to the left of COM a little below the shoulder and said he didnt know he was hit until after the shooting stopped (he's an old body guard), and on the flip side my friend shot a guy COM (in self defense) w/ a 9mm black talon and the guy dropped and died right there. neither of the above incidents had multiple wounds, just one. so id say shot placement is pretty important.
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Old 06-19-2005, 22:44   #40
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We should all believe the delightfully sweet natured Evan Marshall and his entirely believable OSS statistics. ;Q
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Old 06-20-2005, 04:14   #41
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Re: "collage?"

Quote:
Originally posted by utahglock
I've never advocated shooting only once-the one shot stop whether you agree or not is simply a unit of measurement.

Evan
Evan,
I've been astounded at the number of folks on GT who haven't been able to figure this out. How much simpler can it get? ^2

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Old 06-20-2005, 04:34   #42
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I found this statistic interesting: "Sixty-two of the perpetrators committed suicide after killing the officer." ;f
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Old 06-23-2005, 08:06   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by jng1226
Twice!? ;P

I don't mean to offend you, but do you have an 8-point rack growing out of your head or something? ;e

I'm glad you're OK though. There's another one for "stopping power", as I'm sure whoever shot you wasn't using a hyper-powerful 10mm handgun cartridge with an astounding 650 ft-lbs of energy. It was probably just a measly .243 Winchester with only 2200 ft-lbs that you didn't even feel...

Jeff

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Old 06-27-2005, 09:26   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mike H
We should all believe the delightfully sweet natured Evan Marshall and his entirely believable OSS statistics. ;Q
Or perhap we should all believe the sweet natured, mild mannered and ultimately believable Marty Fackler. After all, being a medical doctor automatically makes him an expert on ballistics, doesn't it?

Now here's a novel idea! Let's all completely believe and trust little old Jeffie Cooper and do away with all weapons except 1911s, and all ammo except hardball! After all, anyone that has read Jeffie knows that you can hit an elephant in the tail with .45 hardball and put him orbit. As long as the bullet was launched from a 1911, that is!;f
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Old 06-27-2005, 19:18   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by jng1226
The range closest to my house is the same way(no rapid fire). I drive another 20 minutes out of the way to go to a range that does allow rapid fire just for this reason.


Jeff
I was told only 1 shot per second. I asked, what if the badguy is shooting at me faster than 1 round per second?

I don't go to that range anymore.:(
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Old 06-30-2005, 18:32   #46
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plain and simple, if you want to knock the target down, you want a large slow moving bullet. You want to penetrate, you use a faster moving round.
The .45 govt. was put into use because the army found the .38 cal pistols they were using, did not work well against drugged up fighters in the Phillipines.
There is a reason the army and other people are going back to the .45 govt. slow, big bullets knock down, getting that same sized round in the hottest speed you can find causes you to loose the knock down effect.
I shoot 9mm at work and at home. It is a nice round to train with, but I would never depend on it in combat. 15 rounds in 9mm is not worth 7 in the old govt models.

This is only my personnel opinion, I do like the .40 as well. But for knock down, I go with 110 gr Semi Jacketed HP .45 Govt. I am sure there is even some slower moving rounds that would do even a better job of knock down. That is what I use after 20 years of shooting 9mm and .45 for comps, and now the Army.

I believe after a person is knocked down, their brains have more than enough time to process the pain and damage that was involved in that act that put them down.

thanks for the great reads on this thread
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Old 06-30-2005, 19:57   #47
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The point of the linked article was that handgun cartridges as a whole suck at stopping people, .45acp included. One excerpt of the article is...

Quote:
In the authors’ ongoing study of violence against law enforcement officers, they have examined several cases where officers used large-caliber hand guns with limited effect displayed by the offenders. In one case, the subject attacked the officer with a knife. The officer shot the individual four times in the chest; then, his weapon malfunctioned. The offender continued to walk toward the officer. After the officer cleared his weapon, he fired again and struck the subject in the chest. Only then did the offender drop the knife. This individual was hit five times with 230-grain, .45-caliber hollow-point ammunition and never fell to the ground. The offender later stated, “The wounds felt like bee stings.”

You say you would not depend on a 9mm in combat. With all due respect, no handgun cartridge should be trusted in combat. That's why soldiers are issued rifles (you know, firearms that shoot high-velocity projectiles) as their primary weapons, not handguns.
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Old 06-30-2005, 23:43   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by ronim
plain and simple, if you want to knock the target down, you want a large slow moving bullet. You want to penetrate, you use a faster moving round.
The .45 govt. was put into use because the army found the .38 cal pistols they were using, did not work well against drugged up fighters in the Phillipines.
There is a reason the army and other people are going back to the .45 govt. slow, big bullets knock down, getting that same sized round in the hottest speed you can find causes you to loose the knock down effect.
I shoot 9mm at work and at home. It is a nice round to train with, but I would never depend on it in combat. 15 rounds in 9mm is not worth 7 in the old govt models.

This is only my personnel opinion, I do like the .40 as well. But for knock down, I go with 110 gr Semi Jacketed HP .45 Govt. I am sure there is even some slower moving rounds that would do even a better job of knock down. That is what I use after 20 years of shooting 9mm and .45 for comps, and now the Army.

I believe after a person is knocked down, their brains have more than enough time to process the pain and damage that was involved in that act that put them down.

thanks for the great reads on this thread
ronim

HA HA HA HA HA;z ;z ;z

You actually believe a pistol of any caliber will knock a man down. You must of missed some of neutons basic laws. For example every action has an equal and opposite reaction. No pistol round will knock a man down or even make him shudder. Knockdown power is a myth.
Pat
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Old 07-01-2005, 00:00   #49
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The incalculable factor in "stopping power" is the determination of your attacker. determined attackers fueled by rage, will power and or drugs are extremely difficult to stop. they can take non survivable wounds and still continue to effectively fight until they die. a good example is Platt in the FBI-miami shootout he took serious and non survivable wounds and was literally a dead man walking when he went on to kill two agents and severely wound 3 or 4 more.
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Old 07-02-2005, 09:50   #50
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Quote:
In two previous studies on violence against law enforcement officers conducted by the authors, offenders stated their reason for selecting a particular firearm as availability, 41 per cent in the first study and 68 percent in the second.6 These offenders did not care about bullet weight or velocity. The majority of the offenders in both studies had been involved in prior shootings before assaulting or killing the officers. Their major concern was being “fast on the trigger” and delivering the bullet to its intended target. One stated, “There’s no time to sight up the gun. If you hesitate, you’re dead.”


So true.

Another thing I found interesting is that far more police officers have been killed with 9mm than any other caliber (the 2nd most "cop-killing" caliber was .38 special). I think this is mainly due to the availability of 9mm and .38 special handguns, though another factor to consider is that both of those handguns typically have low recoil (allowing faster and more accurate follow up shots) and 9mm handguns usually have very high capacities.

Finally, did you notice that half of all cops killed were wearing body armor??? That leads me to believe that a lot of cops were killed by headshots.
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