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Old 06-20-2005, 04:14   #41
V Creed
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Re: "collage?"

Quote:
Originally posted by utahglock
I've never advocated shooting only once-the one shot stop whether you agree or not is simply a unit of measurement.

Evan
Evan,
I've been astounded at the number of folks on GT who haven't been able to figure this out. How much simpler can it get? ^2

Last edited by V Creed; 06-20-2005 at 04:38..
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Old 06-20-2005, 04:34   #42
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I found this statistic interesting: "Sixty-two of the perpetrators committed suicide after killing the officer." ;f
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Old 06-23-2005, 08:06   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by jng1226
Twice!? ;P

I don't mean to offend you, but do you have an 8-point rack growing out of your head or something? ;e

I'm glad you're OK though. There's another one for "stopping power", as I'm sure whoever shot you wasn't using a hyper-powerful 10mm handgun cartridge with an astounding 650 ft-lbs of energy. It was probably just a measly .243 Winchester with only 2200 ft-lbs that you didn't even feel...

Jeff

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Old 06-27-2005, 09:26   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mike H
We should all believe the delightfully sweet natured Evan Marshall and his entirely believable OSS statistics. ;Q
Or perhap we should all believe the sweet natured, mild mannered and ultimately believable Marty Fackler. After all, being a medical doctor automatically makes him an expert on ballistics, doesn't it?

Now here's a novel idea! Let's all completely believe and trust little old Jeffie Cooper and do away with all weapons except 1911s, and all ammo except hardball! After all, anyone that has read Jeffie knows that you can hit an elephant in the tail with .45 hardball and put him orbit. As long as the bullet was launched from a 1911, that is!;f
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Old 06-27-2005, 19:18   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by jng1226
The range closest to my house is the same way(no rapid fire). I drive another 20 minutes out of the way to go to a range that does allow rapid fire just for this reason.


Jeff
I was told only 1 shot per second. I asked, what if the badguy is shooting at me faster than 1 round per second?

I don't go to that range anymore.:(
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Old 06-30-2005, 18:32   #46
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plain and simple, if you want to knock the target down, you want a large slow moving bullet. You want to penetrate, you use a faster moving round.
The .45 govt. was put into use because the army found the .38 cal pistols they were using, did not work well against drugged up fighters in the Phillipines.
There is a reason the army and other people are going back to the .45 govt. slow, big bullets knock down, getting that same sized round in the hottest speed you can find causes you to loose the knock down effect.
I shoot 9mm at work and at home. It is a nice round to train with, but I would never depend on it in combat. 15 rounds in 9mm is not worth 7 in the old govt models.

This is only my personnel opinion, I do like the .40 as well. But for knock down, I go with 110 gr Semi Jacketed HP .45 Govt. I am sure there is even some slower moving rounds that would do even a better job of knock down. That is what I use after 20 years of shooting 9mm and .45 for comps, and now the Army.

I believe after a person is knocked down, their brains have more than enough time to process the pain and damage that was involved in that act that put them down.

thanks for the great reads on this thread
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Old 06-30-2005, 19:57   #47
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The point of the linked article was that handgun cartridges as a whole suck at stopping people, .45acp included. One excerpt of the article is...

Quote:
In the authors’ ongoing study of violence against law enforcement officers, they have examined several cases where officers used large-caliber hand guns with limited effect displayed by the offenders. In one case, the subject attacked the officer with a knife. The officer shot the individual four times in the chest; then, his weapon malfunctioned. The offender continued to walk toward the officer. After the officer cleared his weapon, he fired again and struck the subject in the chest. Only then did the offender drop the knife. This individual was hit five times with 230-grain, .45-caliber hollow-point ammunition and never fell to the ground. The offender later stated, “The wounds felt like bee stings.”

You say you would not depend on a 9mm in combat. With all due respect, no handgun cartridge should be trusted in combat. That's why soldiers are issued rifles (you know, firearms that shoot high-velocity projectiles) as their primary weapons, not handguns.
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Old 06-30-2005, 23:43   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by ronim
plain and simple, if you want to knock the target down, you want a large slow moving bullet. You want to penetrate, you use a faster moving round.
The .45 govt. was put into use because the army found the .38 cal pistols they were using, did not work well against drugged up fighters in the Phillipines.
There is a reason the army and other people are going back to the .45 govt. slow, big bullets knock down, getting that same sized round in the hottest speed you can find causes you to loose the knock down effect.
I shoot 9mm at work and at home. It is a nice round to train with, but I would never depend on it in combat. 15 rounds in 9mm is not worth 7 in the old govt models.

This is only my personnel opinion, I do like the .40 as well. But for knock down, I go with 110 gr Semi Jacketed HP .45 Govt. I am sure there is even some slower moving rounds that would do even a better job of knock down. That is what I use after 20 years of shooting 9mm and .45 for comps, and now the Army.

I believe after a person is knocked down, their brains have more than enough time to process the pain and damage that was involved in that act that put them down.

thanks for the great reads on this thread
ronim

HA HA HA HA HA;z ;z ;z

You actually believe a pistol of any caliber will knock a man down. You must of missed some of neutons basic laws. For example every action has an equal and opposite reaction. No pistol round will knock a man down or even make him shudder. Knockdown power is a myth.
Pat
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Old 07-01-2005, 00:00   #49
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The incalculable factor in "stopping power" is the determination of your attacker. determined attackers fueled by rage, will power and or drugs are extremely difficult to stop. they can take non survivable wounds and still continue to effectively fight until they die. a good example is Platt in the FBI-miami shootout he took serious and non survivable wounds and was literally a dead man walking when he went on to kill two agents and severely wound 3 or 4 more.
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Old 07-02-2005, 09:50   #50
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Quote:
In two previous studies on violence against law enforcement officers conducted by the authors, offenders stated their reason for selecting a particular firearm as availability, 41 per cent in the first study and 68 percent in the second.6 These offenders did not care about bullet weight or velocity. The majority of the offenders in both studies had been involved in prior shootings before assaulting or killing the officers. Their major concern was being “fast on the trigger” and delivering the bullet to its intended target. One stated, “There’s no time to sight up the gun. If you hesitate, you’re dead.”


So true.

Another thing I found interesting is that far more police officers have been killed with 9mm than any other caliber (the 2nd most "cop-killing" caliber was .38 special). I think this is mainly due to the availability of 9mm and .38 special handguns, though another factor to consider is that both of those handguns typically have low recoil (allowing faster and more accurate follow up shots) and 9mm handguns usually have very high capacities.

Finally, did you notice that half of all cops killed were wearing body armor??? That leads me to believe that a lot of cops were killed by headshots.
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Old 07-03-2005, 15:50   #51
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I have read many conflicting theories about the subject of ammunition stopping power. What is real stopping power? Is it caliber or is it velocity? Are expanding bullets better than ball to stop and attacker? Which brand is best?

There seems to be as many answers to these questions as there are writers addressing the subject. After reading Dave Spaulding’s article in the August/September 2005 issue of HANGUNS, I find that his comments answer most of these questions to my satisfaction.

Besides providing anecdotal evidence on the subject, Mr. Spaulding discusses specific brands, types and calibers of ammunition. It is however, Mr. Spaulding’s own theories that I found to be most valuable.

“Stopping power really does not exist. What we are looking to achieve is incapacitation.” In other words, “we know that any firearm can cause death by damaging vital organs in the body. However, death does not always result in instant incapacitation.”

“The handgun incapacitation problem or lack thereof, is not an ammo problem at all; it’s a training problem. Let’s use common sense and take a look at the topic of handgun incapacitation. Is a large bullet better than a small bullet? To think otherwise would be silly. A larger-diameter bullet will strike more tissue, which will result in a larger would.”

“By delivering two bullets about four inches apart, the chance of hitting a vital area is enhanced. Naturally, more shots would be even better.”

Mr. Spaulding quotes Dr. Vincent DiMaio, “a famed medical examiner.” Dr. DiMaio:”incapacitation was a direct result of where you shoot the suspect and how many times you can shoot him.”

It seems to me from reading the reference articles, that regardless of the caliber, velocity or type of bullet that one loads, the best way to incapacitate or if you prefer, stop an attacker, is to put numerous quick hits on the center mass of a person. In any event, expending a complete magazine is far safer than expecting that one great shot to down the adversary.
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Last edited by shepsan; 07-04-2005 at 07:46..
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Old 07-05-2005, 15:32   #52
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I agree, my primary being 5.56 but, as a back up that may result in me living or not. I say .45 any day over 9mm. 2 .45 govt to the chest or head of body armor is worn will do the trick. Or yes you can empty the mag of the 9mm. Either way, I want to get back to my primary as quickly as possible. So yes, a rifle round is always better.
I do not know if this is true or not, but I did read in an article how the .22 cal had killed more people other than military actions. So good aim should be and is the best thing for a knock down. Good controlled group to vitals seems to be the best answer for knock down.

Remember the Army went to 9mm to make NATO happy. The Army went to the berretta to make Italy happy. Not because of ballistics or quality of the weapon. Now the Army has gone back to .45 Govt in some Units for the secondary weapon.
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Old 07-05-2005, 19:01   #53
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The validity of the "One shot stop" has been thrown around since the study was done. You can't really argue the results. The results are what they are, but it is to be taken as is, not a definetive study saying if you use brand 'A' it WILL stop an attacker 91.2% of the time. There are many, many stories about good guys, bad guys, soldiers & civilians taking massive damage to the torso & surving to fight on, sometimes even to live through it.
Probably better than shooting jello blocks or using some formula to give a shooter an idea of what works better, and some rounds/bullets do work better than others. The studies are real world shootings, take the results for what they are worth. Bottom line is no handgun round can be determined to stop an attacker reliably w/ one shot, so as said before, shoot until your target is down.
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Old 07-06-2005, 11:58   #54
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I read where the officer shot the offender in the chest four times, and the offender kept coming at him with a knife.

If I were confronted with an offender carrying a contact weapon, I'm going to aim at his pecker. One shot to the pelvis and he's down. It would be mechanically impossible to stand, nomatter what the offender is snorting or smoking.
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Old 07-06-2005, 12:52   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rebeldon
I read where the officer shot the offender in the chest four times, and the offender kept coming at him with a knife.

If I were confronted with an offender carrying a contact weapon, I'm going to aim at his pecker. One shot to the pelvis and he's down. It would be mechanically impossible to stand, nomatter what the offender is snorting or smoking.
The pelvic shot is not as easy as one would assume its harder than a head shot. Also most handgun rounds lack sufficient momentium and energy to break the pelvis.
Pat
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Old 07-08-2005, 20:33   #56
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"One shot to the pelvis and he's down."

Pretty dangerous belief, man.

We should all beware the absolute thoughts. (I.e. If I do "A", bad guy WILL do "B")

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Old 07-09-2005, 01:00   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by 355sigfan
The pelvic shot is not as easy as one would assume its harder than a head shot. Also most handgun rounds lack sufficient momentium and energy to break the pelvis.
Pat
Bones like the pelvis are quite flexible too.
It's a lot more likely you'll just make a hole in it,
than shatter it like it were a piece of glass.

Ideally you would like to take out the hip-joint,
so the attacker would be unable to stand.
Unfortunately though it's a lot easier said than done.
Most attackers won't just stand there
and let you take perfect aim on them.

With the use of body armor becoming more common,
it's not a bad idea to consider shots other than COM.
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Old 07-11-2005, 21:15   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by 355sigfan
The pelvic shot is not as easy as one would assume its harder than a head shot. Also most handgun rounds lack sufficient momentium and energy to break the pelvis.
Pat
True. My mom is an ER nurse and she said that most of the gunshot wounds she has seen in that area of the body, the bullet will deflect and change course... sometimes to the victims detriment, sometimes not...

She also mentioned that most gunshot victims DO have multiple wounds and that surviving is rather easy as long as the bullets did not hit critical areas, also a factor is the speed of treatment for the wounds. Many people walk out of the hospital after having been shot. They can be easy to survive.

I found it interesting that sometimes they leave the bullets in the victims. Strange, since you would think the lead in the bullet would be toxic...

Anyway, something to think about...

I think COM is where it's at. That or, if you can do head shots.
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Old 07-13-2005, 09:33   #59
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Stopping power can be looked at in two ways from my point of view.

1. Stopping a threat, not caring if they live or die just stopping the threat.
2. Time to ceasation of brain function.

Personally, I could care less how long it takes for the brain to stop functioning. I want as much impact/trauma as possible. IMHO Hit the fastest, hardest, with the heaviest bullet that has the most expansion, without over-penetrating. And keep hitting them till the threat is over. Then remain prepared to do it again.

I want a devastating 4 inch diameter wound channel and a doubling in size of the round. 12-13" penetration.

Doubletap .40 155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76"
Doubletap 10mm 155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
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Old 07-16-2005, 10:58   #60
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I got a question: Which is better 9mm or .45ACP?
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