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Old 11-10-2005, 10:35   #101
Alaskapopo
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Re: The 10mm to the arm can shatter the bone

Quote:
Originally posted by glug
and that can be very debilitating, indeed. The luck hit to his arm is the only thing that stopped Platt from killing all 8 of the Feds with his Mini-14 that day in Miami. So it depends upon what you claim is "marginal" hit. The 10mm jhp to the gut will be a LOT more likely to stop a man than a 9mm ball rd to the lung, for instance. It just has a lot more pain, shock, and so on for the guy to try to overcome with his adrenalin. Not everyone has the same level of desperation-adrenalin as the worst case scenarios.
No offense but you don't have an understanding of how gunshot victims act. First off a shattered bone in the arm is not debilitating. It simply takes one limb out of the fight. Second after the bullet goes more than a few inches there is not much pain. There aren't many nerves internally. Pain is not a reliable fight stopper. Only a CNS hit or blood loss stops fights.

A 9mm round to the lungs is better than a 10mm hit to the stomach. Because the subjects ability to breath and get his blood oxiginated becomes impared. Actually Plat was hit in the arm but the bullet traveled through and stopped with in inches of his heart.Also a 10 mm is not likely to shatter bones a good 9mm is not. There is just not enough difference there. Most handgun rounds will not reliably shatter bones. You need rifles and shotguns for that. The 10mm is not a death ray its just another handgun round.
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Old 11-10-2005, 10:39   #102
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Face it Pat,you're no more an authority on this subject than anyone else here.Stating that a hit with a .22 beats a miss with anything else is called stating the obvious.You're evidently assuming that the BG is going to stand there while you pick which part of his anatomy you're going to hit."Reality" shows that in a gunfight,you'll hit your target any way possible,and your calm normal aiming will not apply to a firefight due to several factors,adrenaline dump,etc.You make the whole thing sound like a very sedate controlled situation,when in fact it's anything but! Exactly how do you go about "fighting your way" to a more effective weapon,call a timeout?? Get real,if you've paid someone to teach you this,I'd demand a refund.
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Old 11-10-2005, 10:47   #103
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Quote:
Originally posted by 10mm4ever
Face it Pat,you're no more an authority on this subject than anyone else here.Stating that a hit with a .22 beats a miss with anything else is called stating the obvious.You're evidently assuming that the BG is going to stand there while you pick which part of his anatomy you're going to hit."Reality" shows that in a gunfight,you'll hit your target any way possible,and your calm normal aiming will not apply to a firefight due to several factors,adrenaline dump,etc.You make the whole thing sound like a very sedate controlled situation,when in fact it's anything but! Exactly how do you go about "fighting your way" to a more effective weapon,call a timeout?? Get real,if you've paid someone to teach you this,I'd demand a refund.
Well frankly I feel confident enough in my training and experience to put it up against most anyone on this board.

QUOTE
and your calm normal aiming will not apply to a firefight due to several factors,adrenaline dump,etc.You make the whole thing sound like a very sedate controlled situation
END QUOTE

Again if you had training in combat shooting you would know its possible to make good hits despite high stress. And thats what wins fights hitting your target before he hits you and hitting him where it counts. The truth is the more you face stress and the better you get the more sedate it will feel. Thats the goal is to be able to control your mindset and keep a level head. This will save you when your 10mm super double tap loaded Glock 20 will not. Mindset,tactics and shot placement and courage win gunfights. Its the caliber of the shooter not the gun that really matters.
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Old 11-10-2005, 17:32   #104
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Quote:
Originally posted by 10mm4ever
So..."handguns are not fightstoppers"?Just another blanket statement from the "pro",eh?;Q Some are more effective fightstoppers than others,all things being equal,such as shot placement.Some are even very effective with mediocre shot placement.Also you state"we carry them because they're convenient and handy",sounds more like a condom to me.;Q
Well, maybe you should try and convince the military to change their rifles to 10mm handguns since they are so effective.

Keep in mind, the fact that they are convenient and handy should not be used in your argument to them, the 10mm is just that good is all... ;Q

You suggested that a 10mm is "more effective" when all things are equal, but in reality, all things are NOT EQUAL when you compare the 10mm to other rounds such as the 9mm.

For instance, can you afford to train with your weapon as much if you are paying for 10mm vs 9mm? You'd need to be able to practice more since recoil will be increased and even then I'd doubt you can place 10 rounds of 10mm as accurately and quickly as you could shoot 10 rounds of 9mm.

Training will be the determining factor for victory, most likely. There is a reason why LE officers with more range time statistically increase their likelihood of surviving a shootout. Train, train, train!!

The point of this thread is to make the point that you are NOT going to want to rely on one shot to get the job done (no matter the caliber). So, train often with your carry gun(s) and train to make quick follow up shots.
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Old 11-10-2005, 21:33   #105
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Look, 9 out of 10 attackers dont make you hit them.

Then over half stop after being hit solidly, once in the chest, even with pipsqueak loads like 380 jhp's, 9mm ball, and 38 lrn. So it's a very, very small fraction of attackers who require any sort of real "stopping". All the longarm does, short of shtf, is get in the way, and be too slow to access and use. The 10mmm is plenty as a manstopper. the problem lies with getting the hits. reloading 10mm costs very little more than reloading the 9mm.

In fact, if you practice with a lw,compact 9mm, and carry a full size and wt 10mm, the adrenalin dump of combat will preclude your having any detectable diff in performance. Pistol defense is nearly always at 10 ft or less, you know. It's usually not used against a gun, either. The reason the handgun sucks against autorifles is lack of effective range. Beyond 10 yds, the handgun sucks in combat, just like a rifle sucks beyond 100 yds, when you are being shot at.
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Old 11-10-2005, 21:56   #106
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Excuse me Gorelicks,but why do you keep going back to the 10mm?Here again you'll "wow" all of us with how much cheaper the 9 minimeter is,and how fast you can get in those follow up shots(because,you obviously realize that it will be necessary).Then I'll respond by stating that a .22 is cheap to shoot as well, and follow up shots will be even quicker with a .22,so why don't you get one.Then you'll explain to all of us, why LE officers train so vigorously,and how they hardly ever miss during a gunfight,sometimes even at point blank range,right? If you were truly as confident in placing multiple shots where you want to(while the BG's throwing lead at you,stabbing you,etc) and if quick follow up shots are so crucial,you would have no reason not to carry a .22.Now that would be a real show of confidence in your coolness and marksmanship!! You can kill with a .22 you know.So if your reason for not going to a .22 is lack of stopping power,then obviously you're admitting that horsepower is an important factor....right??;Q

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Old 11-10-2005, 21:56   #107
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Good old gunkid. Hi gunkid. I see you are back. Trying to make 1000 post in 20 days, right?

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Old 11-10-2005, 22:00   #108
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Re: Look, 9 out of 10 attackers dont make you hit them.

Quote:
Originally posted by glug
Then over half stop after being hit solidly, once in the chest, even with pipsqueak loads like 380 jhp's, 9mm ball, and 38 lrn. So it's a very, very small fraction of attackers who require any sort of real "stopping". All the longarm does, short of shtf, is get in the way, and be too slow to access and use. The 10mmm is plenty as a manstopper. the problem lies with getting the hits. reloading 10mm costs very little more than reloading the 9mm.

In fact, if you practice with a lw,compact 9mm, and carry a full size and wt 10mm, the adrenalin dump of combat will preclude your having any detectable diff in performance. Pistol defense is nearly always at 10 ft or less, you know. It's usually not used against a gun, either. The reason the handgun sucks against autorifles is lack of effective range. Beyond 10 yds, the handgun sucks in combat, just like a rifle sucks beyond 100 yds, when you are being shot at.
Most of the half you speak of stop for psycological reasons (ie they give up) I don't want to realy on that. The only way to stop determined attackers with pistols is multiple hits in good areas. 2 to the chest the rest 1 to the head 2 to the pelvis repeat as necessary.

Most gun fights occure with in 7 yards so your right about that but not all do. I know of several shootings well over that. One involved a Trooper up here who was shot at by a rifle armed suspect in the village. Fortunately the suspect missed. The trooper shot 6 rounds at 30 yards and hit the suspect 4 times in the upper torso. He missed twice. Then their was an MP shooting where an MP took out an AK armed mental subject at 80 yards with his Beretta M9. So pistols don't suck past 10 yards their shooters do. Rifles don't suck past 100 yards their shooters do. In the sand pit our guys are making good hits with their M4's at 500 or more yards. Its all in the training. And the reason pistols suck against rifles and shotguns is not just range its power. Not many people have taken a pair of 223 soft points and continued fighting or a pair of buck shot rounds or slugs. But lots of people have kept fighting with 10 or most pistol rounds in them.
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Old 11-10-2005, 22:02   #109
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Quote:
Originally posted by 10mm4ever
Excuse me Gorelicks,but why do you keep going back to the 10mm?Here again you'll "wow" all of us with how much cheaper the 9 minimeter is,and how fast you can get in those follow up shots(because,you obviously realize that it will be necessary).Then I'll respond by stating that a .22 is cheap to shoot as well, and follow up shots will be even quicker with a .22,so why don't you get one.Then you'll explain to all of us, why LE officers train so vigorously,and how they hardly ever miss during a gunfight,sometimes even at point blank range,right? If you were truly as confident in placing multiple shots where you want to(while the BG's throwing lead at you,stabbing you,etc) and if quick follow up shots are so crucial,you would have no reason not to carry a .22.Now that would be a real show of confidence in your coolness and marksmanship!! You can kill with a .22 you know.So if your reason for not going to a .22 is lack of stopping power,then obviously you're admitting that horsepower is an important factor....right??;Q
A 9mm has 95% of the terminal performance of the best 10mm and 45 rounds. Yet its much easier for most to shoot fast and accurately. The 22 does not have 95 % of the terminal performance of a 10mm or 45. So your argument is stupid.
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Old 11-10-2005, 22:10   #110
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Re: Look, 9 out of 10 attackers dont make you hit them.

Quote:
Originally posted by glug
Then over half stop after being hit solidly, once in the chest, even with pipsqueak loads like 380 jhp's, 9mm ball, and 38 lrn. So it's a very, very small fraction of attackers who require any sort of real "stopping". All the longarm does, short of shtf, is get in the way, and be too slow to access and use. The 10mmm is plenty as a manstopper. the problem lies with getting the hits. reloading 10mm costs very little more than reloading the 9mm.

In fact, if you practice with a lw,compact 9mm, and carry a full size and wt 10mm, the adrenalin dump of combat will preclude your having any detectable diff in performance. Pistol defense is nearly always at 10 ft or less, you know. It's usually not used against a gun, either. The reason the handgun sucks against autorifles is lack of effective range. Beyond 10 yds, the handgun sucks in combat, just like a rifle sucks beyond 100 yds, when you are being shot at.
Your post doesn't make sense. Is a pistol "plenty" or does it "suck"?

Rifles suck beyond 100 yards?
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Old 11-10-2005, 22:13   #111
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But the .22 would be even quicker to get quick follow up shots with,I thought that was important guys.The 9mm is 95% as effective as a 10mm???But I thought all handgun calibers were the same?? So,you guys are saying that anything under 9mm isnt enough,and anything more powerful is just wasted energy? Hmmmm.......;Q
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Old 11-10-2005, 22:22   #112
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Quote:
Originally posted by 10mm4ever
But the .22 would be even quicker to get quick follow up shots with,I thought that was important guys.The 9mm is 95% as effective as a 10mm???But I thought all handgun calibers were the same?? So,you guys are saying that anything under 9mm isnt enough,and anything more powerful is just wasted energy? Hmmmm.......;Q
It must be hard to be that dense. Yes follow up shots are important. If you look at the wound path of a 10mm and a 9mm you will not see much difference. Now combine that with the fact you can shoot 4 9mms in the time it takes to shoot 2 to 3 10mm's the 10mm really starts to suck because the 9mm is doing more damage to the target in a shorter amount of time. I do believe the 9mm is a good all around cartridge. I also like the 45 acp because it offers a mile improvement without a huge amount of recoil. I don't care for the 40 much because I don't see the little bit of performance it adds to be worth the costs in recoil and ammunition capacity. The 10mm usually expands less than the 45 acp and has more recoil to boot so its not my choice anymore.
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Old 11-10-2005, 22:36   #113
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Quote:
Originally posted by 355sigfan
It must be hard to be that dense. Yes follow up shots are important. If you look at the wound path of a 10mm and a 9mm you will not see much difference. Now combine that with the fact you can shoot 4 9mms in the time it takes to shoot 2 to 3 10mm's the 10mm really starts to suck because the 9mm is doing more damage to the target in a shorter amount of time. I do believe the 9mm is a good all around cartridge. I also like the 45 acp because it offers a mile improvement without a huge amount of recoil. I don't care for the 40 much because I don't see the little bit of performance it adds to be worth the costs in recoil and ammunition capacity. The 10mm usually expands less than the 45 acp and has more recoil to boot so its not my choice anymore.
Pat
Dense??Show me a 9mm round that will physically knock a 35 lb. block of ballistic gelatin off the table.It's called a pressure wave,and the 9mm doesnt compare,forget about it. Dense would be hitting a nail with a ball peen hammer 5 times to get the job done,as opposed to once or twice with a REAL HAMMER.This is the internet,and if you can be a "firearms instructor" then I'm a damn psychologist.So my prognosis is simply that your recoil sensativity fuels your rage,and explains why you simply cannot stop mentioning the 10mm or stay off threads that say anything about the caliber.Feelings of inadaquicy maybe?Thats my prognosis,because I'm a psychologist.;f
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Old 11-10-2005, 22:44   #114
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Quote:
Originally posted by 10mm4ever
Dense??Show me a 9mm round that will physically knock a 35 lb. block of ballistic gelatin off the table.It's called a pressure wave,and the 9mm doesnt compare,forget about it. Dense would be hitting a nail with a ball peen hammer 5 times to get the job done,as opposed to once or twice with a REAL HAMMER.This is the internet,and if you can be a "firearms instructor" then I'm a damn psychologist.So my prognosis is simply that your recoil sensativity fuels your rage,and explains why you simply cannot stop mentioning the 10mm or stay off threads that say anything about the caliber.Feelings of inadaquicy maybe?Thats my prognosis,because I'm a psychologist.;f
Well if I were a 35 pound block of jello I would be worried. But in real life neither the 9mm or the 10mm will knock a man down. The pressure wave you speak of is called the Temperary Stretch Cavity and at handgun energy levels (yes even the 10mm's) it means little to nothing. Its not large enough to rip and tear tissue like a rifles TSC does. It simply does not contribute to wounding. (ie it does not make the hole bigger) If you look at penetration and expansion figures and actual street results the 10mm has a very very very small edge over the best 9mm rounds. 3 to 5% is not enough to justify the extra recoil.
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Old 11-10-2005, 22:51   #115
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Who told you the pressure wave has little to nothing to do with incapacitation??You choose to believe what you read,and I'll do the same.Any other comments,you can PM me.But I'd rather not waste anymore time with this.
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Old 11-11-2005, 03:35   #116
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Quote:
Originally posted by 10mm4ever
Who told you the pressure wave has little to nothing to do with incapacitation??You choose to believe what you read,and I'll do the same.Any other comments,you can PM me.But I'd rather not waste anymore time with this.
Please tell me you are kidding...

Higher pressure wave = more likely incapacitating blow?

Where did you read that?
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Old 11-11-2005, 09:10   #117
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I know for a fact that proper 10mm loads down big

feral dogs instantly with a chest hit. I also know for a fact that 230 gr .45's and 147 gr 9mm's do nothing of the kind. I'm talking nearly a dozen each of such shootings, not just one fluke. Anyone can prove for themselves that a decent 10mm load is one bad mf, as far as pistols go. IN fact, if you load it right, it hits almost as hard as a 223 sp from a rifle barrel, and ties the softpoint from an M4 barrel.
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Old 11-11-2005, 12:35   #118
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Re: I know for a fact that proper 10mm loads down big

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IN fact, if you load it right, it hits almost as hard as a 223 sp from a rifle barrel, and ties the softpoint from an M4 barrel.
BULLCRAP. Your outright lying now or your so ignorant its funny.
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Old 11-11-2005, 17:59   #119
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355Sig,

Stop entertaining the trolls. Gulg(gunkid) that is.

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Old 11-11-2005, 20:44   #120
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Quote:
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355Sig,

Stop entertaining the trolls. Gulg(gunkid) that is.

Deaf
Sorry about that.
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