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Old 11-11-2005, 22:01   #121
oldgranpa
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Up to our armpits!!

Now that we are up to our armpits in BS on this thread, I offer this url for your entertainment...."the 16-shot-stop" is even listed.
Plus you might even find your favorite handgun/caliber in there.
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4800/ccwfhome.htm
enjoy!
og
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Old 11-12-2005, 10:39   #122
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Re: Re: I know for a fact that proper 10mm loads down big

Quote:
Originally posted by 355sigfan
BULLCRAP. Your outright lying now or your so ignorant its funny.
Pat
Tell me about it;g Hey I am a collector and I love all guns and all guns have their own use. Handguns are great and have plusses all their own and the same goes for rifles/shotguns, but to say that ANY handgun offers the pure stopping potential or power of a rifle is just dumb.;e
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Old 11-12-2005, 16:21   #123
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Question: How many trolls does it take to make a dumb statement.

Well...just one obviously....
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Old 11-22-2005, 18:32   #124
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I'd say it depends on what you call a rifle rd.

There are 10mm loads that match the 223 softpoint in effectiveness, and the 223 has an awesome stopping record. Nobody is stuck with the silly fmj load. The military "ball" bullet (in all calibers) is uniformly acknowledged as being inhumane for taking deer, because it usually lets them run for 100 yds or more after being chest hit by such a load.

If you want 2000 ft lbs of impact energy, then the 308 is not a "real rifle rd" beyond 200 yds. In fact, with some loads, in an 18" barrel, it's not up to delivering such performance at 100 yds.
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Old 11-22-2005, 18:35   #125
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I'd say it depends on what you call a rifle rd.

There are 10mm loads that match the 223 softpoint in effectiveness, and the 223 has an awesome stopping record. Nobody is stuck with the silly fmj load. The military "ball" bullet (in all calibers) is uniformly acknowledged as being inhumane for taking deer, because it usually lets them run for 100 yds or more after being chest hit by such a load.

If you want 2000 ft lbs of impact energy, then the 308 is not a "real rifle rd" beyond 200 yds. In fact, with some loads, in an 18" barrel, it's not up to delivering such performance at 100 yds.

It's not that tough to create a pocket pistol load that outperfoms the 600 ft lb lead flat point (1200 fps) 44-40 bullet that "won the west". Such bullets waste a fair amount of power on the far side of the man who is shot with them. The same thing goes for the 900 ft lbs of the .30 Carbine, yet such rifles have stopped many thousands of men with a single chest hit.

So the issue is:"Can the pistol be loaded in such a way as to get its stopping probability way up there (ie, 19 stops out of 20 shootings) with a single chest hit?" The answer is yes, it can be done. It does, however, take some special bullets, and large cased, high pressure rds like the 10mm, in 5" barrels.
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Old 11-23-2005, 22:50   #126
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Re: I'd say it depends on what you call a rifle rd.

Quote:
Originally posted by print
There are 10mm loads that match the 223 softpoint in effectiveness, and the 223 has an awesome stopping record. Nobody is stuck with the silly fmj load. The military "ball" bullet (in all calibers) is uniformly acknowledged as being inhumane for taking deer, because it usually lets them run for 100 yds or more after being chest hit by such a load...

Take a look at the terminal performance of the "silly fmj" .223

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pagea18.htm

It looks like a hollowed out little 5" long football with about a 3" large diameter starting about 4" deep (large wound cavity from 4-9" deep). Looks like it would hurt!

Last edited by searcher; 11-23-2005 at 23:01..
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Old 11-27-2005, 13:36   #127
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Just affirms my contention that all the caliber wars that exist online are pretty silly. A cool head and proficiency with the firearm you're carrying far, far outweigh the difference between a 9mm, .40, and .45.
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Old 11-27-2005, 14:52   #128
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exactly!

well said, G. Glock. Caliber wars are meaningless and just there for our entertainment, which includes all the OSS stuff.
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Old 11-30-2005, 15:29   #129
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SOMETIMES 223 fmj does well

Often, however, it does not. Not in flesh, anyway. What it does in jello is irrelevant, despite the claims of the lazy and the ignorant. There is no reason to risk using fmj bullets, and the 223 softpoint is both more destructive and more reliable in its effect, to longer ranges, and out of shorter barrels. Besides, the 223 is not the issue here. Handguns are the issue, and I agree that the velocities shown by the 10mm RBCD ammo shows what can be achieved. I did not say that I favored their style of bullet. I said that 70-80 gr bullets can be driven to 2300-2400 fps in 5" barrels with the 10mm. Now watch somebody (who can't read) explain all about how the RBCD bullet is no good. Make that lightweight bullet out of solid copper and have it be split lengthwise, like the QuikShok bullet. No, such a bullet is not illegal, either. Hit some animals with it, and you will see that it performs just like the 223 softpoint, which is to say, quite dramatically.

What cops have to do and what civilians can get away with are not the same things. If you had beat Rodney King silly with a nightstick, you'd have served 5+ years in the penitentiary.

Last edited by Ragnar D.; 11-30-2005 at 15:40..
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Old 11-30-2005, 15:47   #130
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Re: SOMETIMES 223 fmj does well

Quote:
Originally posted by Ragnar D.
Often, however, it does not. Not in flesh, anyway. What it does in jello is irrelevant, despite the claims of the lazy and the ignorant. There is no reason to risk using fmj bullets, and the 223 softpoint is both more destructive and more reliable in its effect, to longer ranges, and out of shorter barrels. Besides, the 223 is not the issue here. Handguns are the issue, and I agree that the velocities shown by the 10mm RBCD ammo shows what can be achieved. I did not say that I favored their style of bullet. I said that 70-80 gr bullets can be driven to 2300-2400 fps in 5" barrels with the 10mm. Now watch somebody (who can't read) explain all about how the RBCD bullet is no good. Make that lightweight bullet out of solid copper and have it be split lengthwise, like the QuikShok bullet. No, such a bullet is not illegal, either. Hit some animals with it, and you will see that it performs just like the 223 softpoint, which is to say, quite dramatically.

What cops have to do and what civilians can get away with are not the same things. If you had beat Rodney King silly with a nightstick, you'd have served 5+ years in the penitentiary.
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Old 12-02-2005, 21:46   #131
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Re: Re: SOMETIMES 223 fmj does well

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Originally posted by 355sigfan
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Interesting, this is his first post and he's discovered already.
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Old 12-03-2005, 03:58   #132
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Re: Re: Re: SOMETIMES 223 fmj does well

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Originally posted by Navy HMC
Interesting, this is his first post and he's discovered already.
You just can't miss him, he's very easy to spot.
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Old 12-05-2005, 15:07   #133
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Quote:
Originally posted by G. Glock
Just affirms my contention that all the caliber wars that exist online are pretty silly. A cool head and proficiency with the firearm you're carrying far, far outweigh the difference between a 9mm, .40, and .45.
I think some who participate in these arguments are providing great information to support several differnt types of view. Others though are probably looking to read opinions that support their own because caliber choice appears to be such a sensitive issue. I would probably advise someone who asked "which caliber" to make their choice and then avoid this forum.

If the statistics I've read from John Lott are accurate then a CCW holder has an excellent chance of surviving a would-be attack from a turd simply by letting the turd know that he has a gun. Of those who would risk getting shot to attack a gun-holder, many stop once they're shot, regardless of the caliber of ammunition or type of gun used (according the FBI Wounding Ballistics .pdf that I've seen linked around here). If that also is true then simply having a gun and the ability to shoot an attacker if necessary gives the defender an excellent chance of success in a confrontation. It's not even until someone is unfortunate enough to face the small number of determined attackers left who won't stop until they're forced to do so that shot-placement and caliber even become an issue.

It seems to me that once someone can settle on a caliber that has proven to penetrate adequately, the differences in the ballistics of the calibers that qualify might not outweigh the other factors such as ability to shoot well, cost and availability of ammunition, enjoyment of shooting (and practicing), confidence in the selected caliber, etc, etc.
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Old 12-26-2005, 14:00   #134
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My $0.02 for what it's worth

1 shot stops are a myth... 186 LEO while in the Navy, 9 of which resulted in UOLF, the Berretta M9 was a puke piece and on several occasions required the expenditure of an entire 15rnd clip plus a 12ga 00 back up to neutralize a hostile. Granted we were using military ball ammo, but still the inadequacy of the 9mm rnd was enough for me to obtain permission from my CO to use my personal side arm with NATO approved FMJ rnds as my primary weapon and the issued Barreta as my back-up.

Even then with the heavier caliber weapon, one shot stops were not seen. In this case I would have to blame the ammo for the majority of the inadequacy of these rnds. Tight grouping in the chest on several hostiles proved ineffective in dropping let alone slowing the hostile.

As has been said several times in this forum, tight grouping, high rate of fire and maintaining a level head are what will win a pistol fight.

As my teams training office said over and over and we drilled over and over...

"2 in the chest, 1 in the head... ensure the SOB is dead" LCDR Jensen USN(R). And it does work... most of the time.
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Old 01-05-2006, 21:22   #135
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Re: SOMETIMES 223 fmj does well

Quote:
Originally posted by Ragnar D.
Often, however, it does not. Not in flesh, anyway. What it does in jello is irrelevant, despite the claims of the lazy and the ignorant. There is no reason to risk using fmj bullets, and the 223 softpoint is both more destructive and more reliable in its effect, to longer ranges, and out of shorter barrels. Besides, the 223 is not the issue here. Handguns are the issue, and I agree that the velocities shown by the 10mm RBCD ammo shows what can be achieved. I did not say that I favored their style of bullet. I said that 70-80 gr bullets can be driven to 2300-2400 fps in 5" barrels with the 10mm. Now watch somebody (who can't read) explain all about how the RBCD bullet is no good. Make that lightweight bullet out of solid copper and have it be split lengthwise, like the QuikShok bullet. No, such a bullet is not illegal, either. Hit some animals with it, and you will see that it performs just like the 223 softpoint, which is to say, quite dramatically.

What cops have to do and what civilians can get away with are not the same things. If you had beat Rodney King silly with a nightstick, you'd have served 5+ years in the penitentiary.
Ummmm...ballistic gelatin is used because it mimics flesh. Of course it's not going to be 100% accurate, but the only way to get that is case studies (mutilating bodies) or animal testing, which is erroneous as animal muscle is different from human muscle. Animals have stronger muscle fibers, on the whole, than humans do. That's why an ape is 6x stronger than a human of comparable muscle mass, body weight, and size.

Regardless, back to the discussion at hand...

.223 soft-point isn't really necessary, unless you want crappy penetration. We're talking a high-velocity round which is going to fragment anyway, with better penetration, versus a soft-point high-velocity round which will also fragment, albeit more reliably, but with decreased penetration.

I don't know about you, but hitting the person comes first, THEN worrying about whether or not the bullet will promote maximum damage.
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Old 01-07-2006, 22:46   #136
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RBCD

Interesting set of comparative into live tissue(porcine)shots:
9mm VS 5.56 into LIVE TISSUE
(edited for elimination of any ambiguity, i.e.-not a potroast)
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=262940

If animal tissue is stronger...
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Last edited by Derringer; 01-09-2006 at 22:17..
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Old 01-09-2006, 22:23   #137
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a FOOL and his money

i suppose the doctors and other professionals that repeatedly purchase and shoot this ammo are doing it because they SEE what the ammo does NOT do?
my experience with these customers is that they tell me it works when they use it. THEY ALSO complain about the price(but not enough to stop them from reordering).
i might buy something once to try it out, but I won't be buying it again(Extreme Shock).
I have spoken with many professionals that are using the ammo in testing. I am aware of the threads on other websites and ONE thing seems to stand out- most of the comments come from those that have never shot this ammo.
I would LOVE to find a lead ball ammo that does what i've seen this ammo do to wild dogs, pigs, coyotes, deer etc..
if you know of a brand please save me some money and time and I'll stop selling the "junk" i'm selling now.

Thanks for your time.
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Old 01-09-2006, 23:50   #138
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Old 01-10-2006, 11:30   #139
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That's it, avoid the subject of performance. Just resort to personal attacks.
If you don't have anything to say except cliches and parroting the same things over and over again not many useful ideas can be gleaned.
RBCD is NOT the answer to all shooting scenarios.
I carry gold dots and black hills 124+p for certain things in addition to RBCD.

The small arms munition market is worth 3 BILLION plus currently,
and some of that money goes to the "experts". when companies hand out money a few tend to agree with big guys to keep on the gravy train.

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Old 01-10-2006, 11:36   #140
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go read in the rbcd post before you open your mouth here. I have seen the performance of rbcd, and I am no way impressed with it what so ever. so i'll stop pissing in your wheaties in this thread.
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