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Old 04-03-2006, 15:54   #161
Hickeroar
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^^^ what was the outcome of this trial? I REALLY hope they didn't convict this poor lady...


EDIT: Nevermind... She had no money. Mark Seiden, her attorney, took her case anyway. Mark was a former homicide cop for Metro-Dade before he became a lawyer. I did what he did, after he called me. I took the case pro bono, at no charge. After I spent an hour with Mark on direct examination explaining to the jury why she had no choice but to shoot, I took out the prosecutor in a little less than a minute of cross examination. The jury was quick, too: they took about two hours to acquit her of all charges.


Sweet
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Old 04-05-2006, 19:13   #162
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This case is living proof of the old saying,
"it's better to be judged by twelve, than carried by six"!
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Old 04-05-2006, 19:29   #163
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It's also makes these silly caliber arguments seem quite moot, no?



Be safe.
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Old 04-05-2006, 20:51   #164
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true!

turbonatr,
you are so right! We always seem to hear more stories about little 22's killing people than the big, honkin 45's do. Or 9's, 40's, etc.
And with a little junk gun at that!
Cheers,
og
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Old 04-05-2006, 21:41   #165
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Quote:
Originally posted by turbonatr
It's also makes these silly caliber arguments seem quite moot, no?



Be safe.
Precisely!

Whatever you carry, learn to shoot it and empty the mag when you're in danger!
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Old 04-05-2006, 21:41   #166
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The most famous .22 killing was the Officer Coates incident.



In November 1992, South Carolina Highway Patrolman Mark Coates shot an attacker four times in the torso with his 4 inch Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum revolver. His attacker, an obese adult male who weighed almost 300 pounds, absorbed the hits and shortly thereafter returned fire with one shot from a single-action North American Arms .22 caliber mini-revolver. Coates was fatally wounded when the tiny bullet perforated his left upper arm and penetrated his chest through the armhole of his vest where the bullet cut a major artery. Coates, who was standing next to the passenger-side front fender of the assailant's car when he was hit by the fatal bullet, was very quickly incapacitated.

After Coates was hit, he immediately ran several feet, scrambling around the front of the assailant's car while simultaneously radioing dispatch that he'd been shot. As he neared the driver's-side front fender he suddenly collapsed onto the pavement.

Trooper Coates fired four 145 grain Winchester Silvertip .357 Magnum bullets directly into his assailant's heavy abdomen, achieving solid hits with each. These particular bullets penetrate deeper than 125 grain JHPs, however none ruptured any vital cardiovascular structures. During the initial ground struggle, Coates was shot twice, but his vest protected him. After fighting off his attacker, Coates quickly climbed to his feet and emptied his revolver. At that particular moment the assailant was still lying on the ground. The combination of the assailant's obesity and the unusual angle at which the bullets entered his body worked to the disadvantage of Trooper Coates.

The Coates shooting exemplifies the fable of energy transfer, especially when encountering a determined attacker. The .357 Magnum cartridge is regarded by many as the ultimate manstopper; a true one-shot stop wonder. The Winchester 145 grain .357 Magnum cartridge is given a one-shot stopping power rating of 86 percent by Marshall and Sanow. According to this rating system, a single hit ANYWHERE in the torso is supposed to be highly effective in stopping an attacker, regardless of whether or not the bullet destroys vital tissue. But on this night, it failed FOUR TIMES! The assailant easily absorbed four bullets in his body, each delivering over 450 foot pounds of kinetic energy. This is equivalent to being hit four times by a baseball going approximately 210 miles per hour.


None of Coates' powerful .357 Magnum bullets were effective, but the bad guy's weak .22 caliber bullet was. The .357 Magnum bullets dumped all their energy into the attacker, whereas the single .22 caliber bullet disrupted vital tissue. The assailant survived the shooting, was convicted of murdering Coates and was sentenced to life in prison.


http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs3.htm


I don't know if the .22 was a "junk" gun or not,
but it certainly worked as advertised, once again.
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Old 04-06-2006, 08:12   #167
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The 145 gr. Silvertips are definately NOT my choice for my .357. They are indeed a "watered down" version.
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Old 04-06-2006, 09:22   #168
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As opposed to those high-powered .22s the BG was using.
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Old 04-06-2006, 11:18   #169
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Factory 145gr. Silvertips exit my 4" GP 100 at around 1350fps. Since you're a muzzle energy guy, that's nearly 600fpe. Hardly watered down. If this load didn't put that BG down, I find it hard to believe any other load would have given the same shot placement.
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Old 04-06-2006, 14:09   #170
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There was a lot of things that went wrong for the Trooper. He should have keyed in on what the subject was saying rather than just going through his praticed speal so he could get a consent search. The perp pretty much gave away something was up and that he was armed.

He also should have not been so quick on the radio. He should have waited till he knew the perp was no longer a threat. The fatal shot came when he was keying his mike calling for help. We just reviewed the shooting recently in a class I attented dealing with officer survival.
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Old 04-07-2006, 20:03   #171
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I carry speer Gold Dot 158 HJP. in my .357

but I think that fat guy just got luckey.
in both his shot placement and in his wounds.
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Old 04-08-2006, 11:55   #172
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Unfortuneatly Trooper Coates made a list of tactical errors.

Searching a suspect who wasn't handcuffed, searching the suspect from the front (the "kick me" position), he even had both of his own hands in the suspects pockets while standing right in front of him.

This was just the beggining of a string of mistakes.

This is a good example that having a powerfull weapon and good marksmanship are not enough to save your life. Mindset and tactics must come first.

(Note-I referred to the murderer as "suspect" because thats all he was to Mr. Coates at that time)

Mr. Coates murder has certainly saved the lives of many Police Officers and will continue to do so as long as we keep discussing it.
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Old 04-20-2006, 13:15   #173
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However, the fact largely remains that bullet placement, rather than caliber, causes immediate stop-page of body functions in most instances.
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Old 04-20-2006, 18:58   #174
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Placing one shot on an armed assailant is asking for trouble. That being said, shot placement is the most critical aspect.

Displace and shoot until you are no longer threatened.
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Old 04-20-2006, 20:21   #175
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Old 05-01-2006, 14:07   #176
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mike H
We should all believe the delightfully sweet natured Evan Marshall and his entirely believable OSS statistics. ;Q
Your exposure is old and limited. By 1996, when Marshall and Sanow released "Street Stoppers," the 2nd of 3 books, there were enough multiple-hit street shootings to include Chapter 24, "Effects of Multiple Bullet Impacts." It's 5 pages of data and only a couple paragraphs of introduction, which only says the data sheds doubt on teaching double taps.

Essentially, there is very, very little difference between the probability of stopping a person with one or two shots, suggesting (to me, anyway) that if a person doesn't go down to a solid torso shot with a certain round, it's unlikely he'll do so when shot a second time in the torso with the same round.

This exposes a strange kind of thinking which I have seen on the boards. It says that any kind of round is fine if it'll feed--if it doesn't work the first time, "just shoot him some more."

The person saying this believes at core that all people are built and wired the same. If a certain 60% round doesn't get him the first time, then we have a 60% shot of getting him the second time. It all adds up great for the good guy, just the way a casino sooner or later takes all your money, even if it's only making 2% with every spin of the wheel.

If only it were a game of chance, if only this could be true! But the Marshall-Sanow percentages aren't gambling probabilities, and they don't measure odds, which works only in a perfect universe of 52 different cards of exactly the same shape, weight, stiffness, and back design. Not only are people not like that, but odds try to predict. Marshall-Sanow historical percentages report facts we already know. No formula is used except to make everything comparable by converting to percentages. And that's no more data manipulation any more than converting from metric to standard.

When I see a round is listed at 60%, the way I read it is the way it was derived: it was used to on different people on the street and stopped 60% of them. In other words, the population is what's being measured: 60% of the population is vulnerable to that round and the rest aren't.

Whoa! If we can't "make up" for ineffective shots with more of the same, then what? The easiest thing I can do is look at the data to pick a load that I hope will work for the largest section of the population. In fact, given that there isn't any empirically measurable "second chance" advantage, I'd do well to pay LOTS of attention to the Marshall data.

My 2 cents.

Last edited by pbass; 05-01-2006 at 14:15..
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Old 05-01-2006, 16:28   #177
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Quote:
Originally posted by pbass
Your exposure is old and limited. By 1996, when Marshall and Sanow released "Street Stoppers," the 2nd of 3 books, there were enough multiple-hit street shootings to include Chapter 24, "Effects of Multiple Bullet Impacts." It's 5 pages of data and only a couple paragraphs of introduction, which only says the data sheds doubt on teaching double taps.

Essentially, there is very, very little difference between the probability of stopping a person with one or two shots, suggesting (to me, anyway) that if a person doesn't go down to a solid torso shot with a certain round, it's unlikely he'll do so when shot a second time in the torso with the same round.

This exposes a strange kind of thinking which I have seen on the boards. It says that any kind of round is fine if it'll feed--if it doesn't work the first time, "just shoot him some more."

The person saying this believes at core that all people are built and wired the same. If a certain 60% round doesn't get him the first time, then we have a 60% shot of getting him the second time. It all adds up great for the good guy, just the way a casino sooner or later takes all your money, even if it's only making 2% with every spin of the wheel.

If only it were a game of chance, if only this could be true! But the Marshall-Sanow percentages aren't gambling probabilities, and they don't measure odds, which works only in a perfect universe of 52 different cards of exactly the same shape, weight, stiffness, and back design. Not only are people not like that, but odds try to predict. Marshall-Sanow historical percentages report facts we already know. No formula is used except to make everything comparable by converting to percentages. And that's no more data manipulation any more than converting from metric to standard.

When I see a round is listed at 60%, the way I read it is the way it was derived: it was used to on different people on the street and stopped 60% of them. In other words, the population is what's being measured: 60% of the population is vulnerable to that round and the rest aren't.

Whoa! If we can't "make up" for ineffective shots with more of the same, then what? The easiest thing I can do is look at the data to pick a load that I hope will work for the largest section of the population. In fact, given that there isn't any empirically measurable "second chance" advantage, I'd do well to pay LOTS of attention to the Marshall data.

My 2 cents.
So M & S say that their data shed doubt on the increased efficacy of multiple hits? Gee, one of the (many) criticisms of M & S was that they relied solely on "one-shot" incidents (and anybody worth shooting is worth shooting twice). How convenient that multiple hits turn out to be of doubtful effectiveness!
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Old 05-01-2006, 17:51   #178
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What about Soldier of Fortune magazine's investigation and critique of their book?

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Old 05-01-2006, 21:02   #179
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The article that started this thread proves that two shot's won't always stop someone. That doesn't mean multiple shots aren't effective, just that sometimes it takes more than two shots, or three or even the whole mag. However if you shoot someone enough times they will stop, eventually you will destroy enough tissue so that their body can no longer function or they will simply bleed to death from all the holes.

I don't care how you're "wired" or "built" if you are shot enough times you will go down. Agreed one or two shots can't guarantee a stop, but 10 or 15 "generally" will.

You keep firing until the threat is neutralized or you run out of bullets. Then when you run out of bullets you pray you're man enough to whip a guy that's been shot 15 times.
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Old 05-01-2006, 22:17   #180
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I believe this points out how important it is to train for head shots in the failure to stop drill. Two to the chest then go for the head or pelvis then back to the chest and so on until your out of ammo.
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