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Old 08-15-2005, 13:37   #51
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A quick glance in the back of Motor Trend shows an '05 M3 Competition trapping about 105 mph in the quarter mile, and an '05 CTS-V trapping about 110 mph. They're basically identical in handling measurements (slalom and figure-eight), and the Cadillac stops four feet shorter from 60 mph. The M3 is unquestionably the better sports sedan of the two, but being 67 hp and 140 ft/lbs of torque behind the V, it does not out accelerate it.
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Old 08-15-2005, 13:48   #52
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Road and track shows nearly identical numbers for 0-60, skidpad, and slalom. They show the M3 outbraking the CTS-V by 3 and 5 ft. from 60 and 80 mph respectively. 1/4 mile times are the same, but the CTS does indeed have a significantly higher trap speed. That extra power would undoubtedly show itself at the top end. I think the CTS-V wheel hop problem is what held it back in comparison to the M3. The CTS will undoubtedly hang with the M3 off the line, and I think it would take it past 1/4 mile. There is no replacement for displacement. And you get 2 more doors and back seat that can be used for adults for about 4k less. Not too shabby for the new kid, ehh?

The floor mounted parking brake and skip-shift crap really spoil it though. I don't even see why they bothered with the latter. The CTS-V still gets hit with the gas guzzler tax, so it's pretty damn pointless.
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Old 08-15-2005, 18:06   #53
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define "good"....
Well, I can tell you that I have an LS1 Camaro, with about the biggest cam you can fit in an ls1(.608/.612 238/242 @.050 115lsa) with just exhaust, and intake manifold/throttlebody, my car made 430rwhp 382rwtq SAE corrected through the 6spd, and I can still get 26+mpg on the hwy in 6th gear.
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Old 08-15-2005, 23:49   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by c5367
Road and track shows nearly identical numbers for 0-60, skidpad, and slalom. They show the M3 outbraking the CTS-V by 3 and 5 ft. from 60 and 80 mph respectively. 1/4 mile times are the same, but the CTS does indeed have a significantly higher trap speed. That extra power would undoubtedly show itself at the top end. I think the CTS-V wheel hop problem is what held it back in comparison to the M3. The CTS will undoubtedly hang with the M3 off the line, and I think it would take it past 1/4 mile. There is no replacement for displacement. And you get 2 more doors and back seat that can be used for adults for about 4k less. Not too shabby for the new kid, ehh?

The floor mounted parking brake and skip-shift crap really spoil it though. I don't even see why they bothered with the latter. The CTS-V still gets hit with the gas guzzler tax, so it's pretty damn pointless.
A resistor, or high dollar resistor depending on which you prefer, and the skip shift is gone either way.

The CTS makes the higher trap, therefore is faster, those claiming that their holy grail bmw is faster and smokes the ctsv are getting lucky enough to go up against morons who cant drive.
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Old 08-16-2005, 12:43   #55
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Yes, in a drag race, my money is on the cadillac. On a road course however, the M3 will take it. The fact is you are comparing 2 different classes of car. One a sports sedan, the other a sport coupe. I am not bringing money into this, since BMWs are and always will be more expensive than a somewhat comparible US made car. That's not the point. You don't buy a BMW if you are worried about money. Just like people shouldn't whine about the price difference between a SIG P220 and a Ruger P90. Both get the job done, just one does it better and costs more.

Now the BMW that is actually in the same class as the CTS V, is the M5. That will KILL a CTS-V in any comparison. But cost about twice as much.
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Old 08-16-2005, 12:53   #56
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Originally posted by epsylum

Now the BMW that is actually in the same class as the CTS V, is the M5. That will KILL a CTS-V in any comparison. But cost about twice as much.
I'm glad you brought that up, as its much closer to a apples to apples comparison. I personally would take the CTS-V and a dp on a house;f
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Old 08-16-2005, 16:07   #57
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The M3 may have only two doors but it's still a sedan. And yes, the M5 was more of the same class with the CTS-V and the price difference is only about $15,000. The new M5, of course, is a class on its own with no rivals. One of those supercharged AMGs may match its speed and acceleration but not anywhere else.
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Old 08-16-2005, 19:09   #58
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The CTS-V should get upgraded to the LS7 V8 in the next couple of years, which will match the BMW V10's horsepower, and stomp it in torque. Even the LS6 currently in place produces more torque than the Bimmer V10. Thank God BMW came to their senses to offer a true manual transmission in the M5/M6 for the U.S.
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Old 08-17-2005, 10:03   #59
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I would prefer to have a manual rower, but a 7-speed SMG specifically developed for the M5/M6 wouldn't be a bad deal either. Remember that the V10 only has 5-liters worth of displacement to put out that much horsepower and torque And that's why it's a BMW.
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Old 08-17-2005, 13:59   #60
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Other automakers know how to squeeze lots of horsepower out of small displacement engines, not only BMW. Fact is, however, most of these high strung engines are lacking in torque. The 305 cu in BMW V10 makes less torque than the 346 cu in LS6 V8, and a LOT less than the 427 cu in LS7. No replacement for displacement (except forced induction).
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Old 08-17-2005, 14:32   #61
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I'd hardly call 383-lbft of torque "little". How much torque does a 5-liter American V-8 put out?
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Old 08-17-2005, 20:02   #62
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Well, apples to oranges and all: Cadillac's 4.6 V8 makes about 310 ft-lbs these days....Ford SVT's '03/'04 supercharged 4.6 makes an underrated 390 ft-lbs...but no American 5.0 V8's, let V10's, currently in use. 383 ft-lbs isn't a little, but in light of an engine that's 5 years old in design that has a two cylinder handicap and a mere 41 cubic inches more displacement making more (all with 'ancient' pushrod architecture), it's not impressive.
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Old 08-17-2005, 20:08   #63
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Oh yea...C5367, decide on a car yet?;f
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Old 08-17-2005, 22:35   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by method
Well, apples to oranges and all: Cadillac's 4.6 V8 makes about 310 ft-lbs these days....Ford SVT's '03/'04 supercharged 4.6 makes an underrated 390 ft-lbs...but no American 5.0 V8's, let V10's, currently in use. 383 ft-lbs isn't a little, but in light of an engine that's 5 years old in design that has a two cylinder handicap and a mere 41 cubic inches more displacement making more (all with 'ancient' pushrod architecture), it's not impressive.
There is more to it than just numbers. The BMW V-10 is a revver. It wasn't designed to be a high torque stump puller. The V-10 they devolped is a supposed to be a nod to thier F-1 devolpment (high revving V-10).

The M5 as a whole is very impressive to me. It is, without a doubt, a hell of a sports sedan.

I like american muscle cars (old and new), and I like high dollar european cars. They are not directly comparable IMO. The were 2 completely different goals in mind. I can tell you after riding in my uncle's M3, there isn't an american car like it. That is why he bought it and paid more for it. Sure a 03 cobra could spank it and probabaly wither beat it or give it a hell of a run for it's money on a track, but it still doesn't "feel" like a BMW.

A Timex tells time just as well as a Rolex, so why the price difference?
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Old 08-18-2005, 05:43   #65
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Oh yea...C5367, decide on a car yet?;f

Not yet. I still have about 2 weeks before I can buy. The Audi is the practical choice. It's the cheapest to insure, gets the best mileage, AWD for our lovely Chicago winters, and Audi has a plan similar to BMW's in that all maintenance is covered for 4 years, thus it would be the most economical choice.

OTOH, the little devil on my shoulder says get the M3. It really isn't a rational choice in the least. Terrible mileage, tiny backseat, and I'd likely have to budget in speeding tickets. That said, I've made great strides in at least trying to rationalize it to myself. "When averaged with the MPG my bike gets, fuel costs won't be too bad." "The extra power will allow me to merge and pass more safely" "I'm not a taxi, why do I need a big backseat?" "The insurance will go down when I turn 25 next year anyway" "I'll just get a radar detector" "I don't need navigation, I have a great sense of direction!" and so on. I tried those reasons out on the woman while she was admonishing me to get something practical. She was less than convinced. ;f

And in the middle of these extremes, there is the G35 and 3-series. The TL has been all but ruled out because of the insurance cost and FWD. The cost of owning a CTS-V is nearly double that of the M3, putting it out of contention as well.

You may now return to the Caddy v. BMW flame -war in progress;f
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Old 08-18-2005, 08:07   #66
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Dang Insurance companies!!

They've succeeded in messing up my whole car buying calculus.

Now that I've switched to them, the insurance company I had been getting quotes from has radically changed some of them. There really is no rhyme or reason to the process it seems. Now, the M3 runs 890, but the CTS-V would be 880. BIG difference. Now the CTS-V is back in the running, especially since they've extended the employee discount promo. I think I'll head out to the Caddy dealer today and take her for a spin. I figure with the dough I would save, I could get some suspension upgrades and that resistor Z28 mentioned and go thrash some M3's ;f
The TL is now quoted as the cheapest to insure at 655, followed by the 330i at 670 and the A4 is bumped up to 780. The difference between the most expensive and least is less than 40/month, which does open up previous options that had been ruled out on that basis.
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Old 08-18-2005, 10:57   #67
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When buying a performance car, logic has nothing to do with it. It's all about the passion, especially when money is no longer a significant issue. I could have bought an M3 for the same price as my Z4, but why didn't I go with a faster car? Because it's not a two-seater ragtop, because it's heavy and can't be thrown into a corner as easily, and because it doesn't look as cool.

Buy what you want. The CTS-V is an impressive vehicle (thank to its German chassis ) and distinctive looking. But it ain't no BMW, much less M-Powered BMW. Car authorities just don't wake up one day and decided that BMW makes excellent vehicles. Car enthusiasts just don't wake up one day and decided to buy BMW because it's "kewl" or because lawyers drive them.
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Old 08-18-2005, 13:50   #68
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Look at this guys cadillac V. Ive seen it in person...and it looks and sounds.....its just pure sex. I think hes probably dropped in a stroker motor with a big cam now, but the car did have nitrous and exhaust and put a whoopin' on a lot of unsuspecting mustangs and stock F-body cars.

check out the pics...

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showth...25#post3358825
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Old 08-18-2005, 17:42   #69
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I think you'll be happy no matter what you choose. I'm not a E46 M3 fan, as I think there are other cars that I prefer based on what criteria is most important for that day (i'm indecisive )

Like FNman, I chose a slower car due to feel and handling (my e30 versus faster bigger, heavier e36s), which at that time, were paramount to me. When I graduate, I feel my priorities will be different.
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Old 08-18-2005, 18:35   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by fnfalman
When buying a performance car, logic has nothing to do with it. It's all about the passion, especially when money is no longer a significant issue. I could have bought an M3 for the same price as my Z4, but why didn't I go with a faster car? Because it's not a two-seater ragtop, because it's heavy and can't be thrown into a corner as easily, and because it doesn't look as cool.

Buy what you want. The CTS-V is an impressive vehicle (thank to its German chassis ) and distinctive looking. But it ain't no BMW, much less M-Powered BMW. Car authorities just don't wake up one day and decided that BMW makes excellent vehicles. Car enthusiasts just don't wake up one day and decided to buy BMW because it's "kewl" or because lawyers drive them.
Just like why my brother bought and is spending lots o bucks building his 91 GSX-R 1100 intead of just buying a Hayabusa. He aeasily has spent enough money on his Gixxer to have bought a busa and he likes (make that loves) the Busa, but the big bore gixxer is his passion. It's about what "does" it for you. For me, I don't care about numbers, all GM's (except the Z06 vette, not same thing in a different skin, just the vette) don't do anything for me. I am a Ford guy when it comes to US cars, I am a Toyota man when it comes to japanese cars, and I am a German car man when it comes to the euros (Audi, VW, Mercedes, Prosche, BMW). I would rather have a Porsche than any Ferrari (not like that will ever be something for me to have to worry about), 275 GTB and F-40 excluded.

That's what "does" it for me.
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Old 08-19-2005, 09:12   #71
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Yeah, but there's a big difference between boring out a Gixxer Thou and ricing a Honda Civic or Dodge Neon or Ford Focus.
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Old 08-19-2005, 10:26   #72
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Yeah, but there's a big difference between boring out a Gixxer Thou and ricing a Honda Civic or Dodge Neon or Ford Focus.
huh?

who was ricing out a civic?

Anyway, his goal is to match a Busa in performance. He could have just bought one for how much he has spent to match it. But he just likes the Gixxer better. As he says "they don't make them like they used to". Double cradle frame so the big engine just sticks out into the air. Air/Oil cooled. etc.

Me, I would have just bought a Busa and gotten it overwith. Every day reliability and gobs of power all backed by a warrantee. But I guess I don't have the affinity he does towards those old GSX-Rs.
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Old 08-19-2005, 13:48   #73
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I was just saying that it's different to take a quality piece of work like a Gixxer and mod it out to match the power of a Busa than ricing out a Honda Civic to try to match a Mustang V8.

Some mods are just damned silly. Besides, there's nothing wrong with modding a Gixxer for more horsepower. The Hayabusa doesn't have the sporty handling and the lightweight of the Gixxer.
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Old 08-19-2005, 18:37   #74
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Quote:
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The Hayabusa doesn't have the sporty handling and the lightweight of the Gixxer.
Umm the oil cooled big bore Gixxers weren't known for light weight, that engine weighs a ton.

Anyhow, I get it now, and yes there is a big difference. I was just trying to say some poeple like things that aren't the baddest thing out there and there is nothing wrong with that.

Oh and it takes one hell of a rider to push a Busa to it's handling limits. They are heavy, but competent in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing. No it ain't a new Gixxer, but 99.9% of riders out there would be hard pressed to take it to it's limits. My brother went to a watch his buddy ride at a track day and a busa showed up (not heavily modified) and was puttin a hurtin on everyone else there (including all your modern supersport bikes). It just takes a rider that knows what they're doin and apperently he was by far the most competent one there.
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Old 08-23-2005, 05:10   #75
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Quote:
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Update:
Just got done test driving the G35. My initial thoughts: ehhh. It honestly doesn't feel like it has just short of 300hp. Now, it doesn't feel slow either, but it didn't come across as the über-sports sedan some make it out to be. Then again, I really didn't lay into it. The shifter was very short throw, but very notchy and high effort. Definitely not as slick as the Acura or Audi. I did like the RWD, and even through the basic 4-turn test drive it felt like it could attack the twisties better than the other two.
The interior was tasteful and the fit and finish was on par with the Audi, but not the Acura. I did like the way the nav system hides when not in use, but the controls were only slightly better than the A4, which isn't saying much. Further, the intelligent key isn't available on the 6-spd, and no bluetooth. As far as nifty tech features go, the Infinity is behind the competition.
All in all, I'd have to say the G35 is nearly out of the running, unless I could get a very good deal. The salesman mentioned, without my even asking, that he could likely let it go for a touch above invoice. They had quite a few on the lot and the '06's will be here mid-Sep, so my impression is that they're pretty eager to unload them.

Tomorrow, I test the Bimmer 3-series and M3.

I'd give the G35 another chance. I have a 2005 G35X with everything. The car has a very sensitive ECU and if driven too gently before you drove it will keep that character. I suggest you take a test drive without a saleperson and really stomp on it. Give it a couple fast starts and it will really tear.

My only complaints about the car are the lack of a voice control on the navi and the piss poor gas mileage. Considering it costs me about $45 - $50 for a fillup, something better than 16mpg would be nice. Of course, the way I drive is to blame for that.

My best friend has the new TL. What can I say, it's a nice car but it's not an enthusiasts car.
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