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Old 02-14-2007, 22:33   #1
BattletweeteR
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stupid question but meant in seriousness

some background on me, I am an Air Force Vet from 93-98, I worked on electronic countermeasure systems on A-10s at C-130s Pope AFB(23rd flying tigers ), B-52s (Barksdale), and ECM jamming pods for F-16s(the Kun). that included the chaff and flare systems too. did a tour at Kobar towers(about a year before bomb), and AL-Jabar Kuwait. during those spontaneous military build up in the middle east due to Saddam moving his troops around, that started in Oct 94 IIRC

now....i just watched that video of a Marine Sea-knight chopper that got shot down by a shoulder launched SAM. I am pretty sure that chopper had a chaff and flare system and Rf sensor system....if they dont then what the hell?

i do think they have door gunners as well which also act as spotters for SAM's...could be wrong.

as i watched this missile go up, i counted about 5 seconds (possibly more)of missile launch before impact.

now the "question"

if the door gunner had some sort of belt fed 12 Ga. auto loaded weapon with large steel shot "steel turkey shot?" as ammo, would it be possible for him to shot down the SAM? like skeet shooting?

i believe a gunner may have some seconds of seeing the missile and if the Ga weapon loaded the special ammo with some sort of tracer element. he could possible move the field of shot to hit the missile before it hits the helicopter.

things i am not sure....is there such thing as a 12 Ga shot tracer?

how hard is it to shoot something while in a helicopter is doing evasive maneuvers? or would the helicopter have to change evasive maneuvers and fly in a straight line or a slow curve so allowing the door gunner to shot down the SAM?

i also know there could be collateral damage on the ground, but wouldn't the would the steel shot loose some of its momentum before it hits the ground?

its just a thought.... so if their are any doorgunners or someone with helicopter experience that can tell me if it is possible to do this, or tell me it is not possible to do this i would appreciate it.

just an old ECM troop wondering.

...respect for the fallen.

PS, i have also heard about some sort of counter measure to the RPGs that shoots a shot out to destroy it before it hits the armored vehicle. but its still in development tho, but i could see it being used on helicopters as well.
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Old 02-21-2007, 13:44   #2
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Re: stupid question but meant in seriousness

Quote:
Originally posted by BattletweeteR
...how hard is it to shoot something while in a helicopter is doing evasive maneuvers?
Several recent articles in LE & aviation journals (including my latest issue of Rotor & Wing) indicate it's extremely difficult to bring anything approaching precision fire to a stationary target, while the platform is as steady as possible in a hover by a trained sniper. Now factor in that the platform is trying to avoid being lunch and that would be some tall order indeed.

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Old 02-21-2007, 14:04   #3
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I am former USAF 303x2 RADAR systems repairman, 1975-79.

From what I have seen and read there are no countermeasures on those choppers! Why?


Skeet shooting - one would need to put a lot of shot in front of a SAM to down it, even with an AI assisted system. Maybe someone in the bean counting department at the Pentagon figures it is not worth the investment to protect those resources!



http://webscript.princeton.edu/~afp/...ss=5&article=8

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003202.html
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Old 03-11-2007, 21:06   #4
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Former Tomcat RIO here. Several problems shooting down an inbound SAM.

1. SAMs travel at speeds between about Mach 1 and Mach 3+. If you tried to use any kind of shotgun shell, whose Rmax was, for the sake of argument, 100 yards, your pellets would impact the SAM, at the most, .2 seconds or so before the SAM impacted you.

2. We have systems to shoot down inbound missiles. The CIWS Phalanx is mounted on about all Navy ships, destroyer and bigger. However, it is very big and would be impractical for use on an aircraft.

3. As good as the CWIS is, it is designed for use on a vessel going no more than about 50 knots, pulling no more than about half a "g". Adding one to a helo with at least double the performance and the addition of a third dimension, would likely overwhelm the CIWS's ability to calculate a tracking solution.

4. No way a man would have any more than a blind luck shot trying to calculate lead from a maneuvering helo to a maneuvering SAM with over 1,000 knots closure and the frontal area of, at most, a telephone pole.
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