GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-06-2007, 16:37   #1
ciwsguy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Metro Louisville KY
Posts: 205
9mm ammo

Fellow shooters,
Anybody have any specific brand / bullet weight preferences or problems with any factory new 9mm ammo? Also, has anybody had any bad experiences with any specific brands of 9mm ammo? In an attempt to determine the best ammo for my, I've experimented with several new WWB 115 FMJ, UMC 115 FMJ, CCI Blazer Brass, ADCOM 124 Grain NATO Surplus, and Winchester 124 Grain NATO excess, and some Winchester 147 Grain JHP.

Of the various brands/sizes I have fired, the only one I didn't like and won't ever trust again is ADCOM NATO Surplus. Out of a box of 50 ADCOM, experienced three FTF and one KaBoom (KB) in my G19. I found one round in another box in which the bullet was seated too deeply into the brass case. That KB was a shock, to say the least. KB blew the magazine completely out of the weapon and resulted in a numb shooting hand with a bruised trigger finger for a few days. Never had that happen before, though I have heard it is possible with any gun. When I recovered my wits, I cycled the slide, which ejected a brass case a half-moon blow-out at the base. I field-stripped the G19 and found no projectile in the barrel. I attributed the failure to either an overloaded round, a weak case, or some combination thereof. Needless to say, I did not fire anymore ADCOM ammo. Had my G19 checked out by a Gunsmith and he determined it to be OK to fire. It has been OK since, though I did go ahead and replace the magazine catch just in case.

Of the all other brands fired, I find that the NATO-spec ammo is relatively hot stuff, as evidenced by the recoil and snap of the slide. Got the same recoil and snap result in my 2nd Gen G17.

I don't recommend ADCOM to ANYONE! Found out after the fact that the stuff is made in the Persian Gulf region, though they claim to be a state-of-the-art ammo manufacturing facility with NATO qualfication. Does anyone know if NATO rated ammo might be SMG use only? The box certainly didn't say that. Currently I'm shooting some excess production Winchester NATO 124 Grain FMJ and an experiencing no problems, just a snappy slide and every round fires.
ciwsguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2007, 19:20   #2
domzilla9
Phone Flinger
 
domzilla9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,815
Send a message via AIM to domzilla9 Send a message via Yahoo to domzilla9
A case head failure is not the same thing as a Kboom. You are confusing these two terms.

CCI Blazer Aluminum is total crap. CCI Blazer Brass runs hot and cold, and the best thing I can say about it is that it's a commonly available low-cost brass cased brand and that I've had great results reloading CCI brass.

It sounds like you're picky about ammo. And there is no good reason to not be picky. You may want to seriously consider buying a Dillon progressive reloading press and start reloading 9mm. Reloading isn't about saving money. It's about getting the exact kind of ammunition that you want. It's also great therapy for folks with ADD and OCD.
__________________
Politics n. A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. The conduct of public affairs for private advantage. Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

Last edited by domzilla9; 03-06-2007 at 19:22..
domzilla9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2007, 22:52   #3
fryeg7
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 80
9mm NATO is a standard load anywhere they use the C.I.P. 9mm standard. we have SAAMI here, which places high-end C.I.P. loads in 9mm+P, which should be no problem for any modern handgun.

if your gun balks at NATO loads, you need a better gun or a gunsmith . . . . keep in mind that there are some NATO 9mm rounds that are specifally designed for subguns and operate at pressures not suitable for pistols. make sure you know what you're getting. check the headstamp.

if a NATO load burst in your glock, it was probably overcharged, but then again, you do take your chances with an unsupported chamber. this round probably wouldn't be an issue if the case was fully supported. who can't make a pistol run reliably if you cheat in the chamber?

glocks cheat. they trade safety for feeding reliability.

frye
fryeg7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2007, 01:22   #4
Rikki
Pathetic Loser
 
Rikki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Behind the curtain
Posts: 1,512
As Fryeg7 says,"9mm NATO is a standard load anywhere they use the C.I.P. 9mm standard. we have SAAMI here"-and that's correct-BUT-
The demand for NATO 9 is so great that you got everybody and their brother pumping that stuff out with any headstamp that will sell.
You used to be able to trust a NATO headstamp- but now all you know you're getting is a piece of brass with "NATO" on it- most of this stuff is coming out of old Eastern Bloc countries- They gotta do something for a buck.
Used to goto gunshows and buy cases of metal tinned/wooden boxed/waxed papered ammo made by Hadji,Borris, or YenChin-but with $ driving the market, you just don't know what you're getting.
The latest issue of "FRONT SIGHT" magazine mentions some 9x19 military ammo-7N21 AP-82grs/1508fps, 7N31 AP-65grs/1967fps-stuff made for only the PP 2000 SMG and the GSh-18 pistol...wait till some of THAT STUFF hits the gun shows...WhaHOO!!!!
Something to be said for buying good old "Made in the USA" Winchester White Box from Wal-Mart.
__________________
I DID stay at a Holiday Inn last nite...
Rikki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2007, 06:11   #5
domzilla9
Phone Flinger
 
domzilla9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,815
Send a message via AIM to domzilla9 Send a message via Yahoo to domzilla9
Quote:
glocks cheat. they trade safety for feeding reliability.


Now that brings up an interesting question. If ciwsguy had duplicates of the cartridge that had a case failure in his glock and he fired these over pressured rounds in a beretta, as sig and a 1911, what would happen?

The pressure has to go somewhere, and if the bullet can't move fast enough then you're looking at a real kboom.

A few months ago, a few employees at a "local indoor range" were eyewitnesses to amazing display of poor judgment. One of their customers blew up a beretta 92fs: split the chamber, damaged the slide and frame, etc. The staff found a dozen or more cases on floor that had half-moon shaped eruptions at the head where the brass had failed to contain the pressure. Those cases has been ejected out of Glock 17 which was none worse for the wear, though each shot and ejected the glock's magazine and stung the shooter's hand. All of these cases came from the same batch of ammo ("swat team reloads"). The customer had fired one round of this ammo through the Beretta 92, resulting in the Kboom and significant damage to the gun and the shooter.

Are "fully supported chambers" really safer than the Glock's "unsupported chamber"? I don't think so.
__________________
Politics n. A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. The conduct of public affairs for private advantage. Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
domzilla9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2007, 15:57   #6
ciwsguy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Metro Louisville KY
Posts: 205
Thanks for the replies, guys (I presume you are all guys, but gals or very OK too, especially if into guns)

Domzilla9,
I'm not picky about ammo, just experimenting with ammo brands, economy and wanted to know if anyone else had the experience I had with ADCOM NATO Surplus. What do I want the ammo to do? Economically punch holes in targets without blowing up my hand! I'm not interested in hand-loading - don't want to blow my backside (or other unmentionables) to kingdom come.

Now understand what you mean about definition of KB as I could not find the definition in Websters. A case failure that blows the mag (and chunks of it into my cheek and hand) don't qualify. KB is a ruptured chamber or serious damage to the gun which likely renders it scrap-pile fodder and a spare parts locker for the undamaged parts. I thought KB meant anything that was well beyond the normal "BANG" and slide cycle mode. Guess I ended up with more of a "KABLAAM", bullet does downrange, no cycle, alot of smoke, numburning sensation and the thought of "what the H--- just happened"? Guess double-taps or rapid fire risks a real KB especially if a squib or hang-fire occurs.

Others,
If I understand the string of replies, NATO ammo unless specifically marked SMG use only should be OK for sound firearms. My G19 did not balk at NATO, I think I just got some bad stuff that NATO rejected from the manufacturer. When I think about it, why would NATO ammo for guns in widespread use be surplused out to the commercial market? Maybe because it was BAD? I don't have a problem with production overruns like the Winchester NATO was advertised. Live and learn, I suppose. Every day is a new learning experience. Still, I don't recommend ADCOM ammo to anyone. Made in the UAE.

Thx much for the help!
ciwsguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2007, 19:41   #7
fryeg7
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 80
Quote:
Originally posted by domzilla9


Now that brings up an interesting question. If ciwsguy had duplicates of the cartridge that had a case failure in his glock and he fired these over pressured rounds in a beretta, as sig and a 1911, what would happen?

The pressure has to go somewhere, and if the bullet can't move fast enough then you're looking at a real kboom.

A few months ago, a few employees at a "local indoor range" were eyewitnesses to amazing display of poor judgment. One of their customers blew up a beretta 92fs: split the chamber, damaged the slide and frame, etc. The staff found a dozen or more cases on floor that had half-moon shaped eruptions at the head where the brass had failed to contain the pressure. Those cases has been ejected out of Glock 17 which was none worse for the wear, though each shot and ejected the glock's magazine and stung the shooter's hand. All of these cases came from the same batch of ammo ("swat team reloads"). The customer had fired one round of this ammo through the Beretta 92, resulting in the Kboom and significant damage to the gun and the shooter.

Are "fully supported chambers" really safer than the Glock's "unsupported chamber"? I don't think so.
this is an interesting topic. although i may be wasting my time discussing it with those who have drunk the glock koolaid (just kidding folks).

i see your point about the glock not doing a chamber KB on the same ammo the beretta did, but that speaks more to the differences between two pistols than a chamber design. it is also possible the ammo was too hot to begin with and the beretta got a really, really hot one.

if you took two glocks, equal in every single way down to the batches of raw materials they were made from, but one had a fully-supported chamber and one had a typical glock chamber with the feed ramp intruding into the chamber. what would happen then with an overcharged round . . . . i'm not an engineer and don't know what would happen. but i'd chose the fully-supported one if i had to chose.

are you saying the unsupported chamber act as an emergency pressure relief, like a pop-off valveon a water heater?

honestly, all other things being equal, i think the fully supported pistol would suffer less failures than the alternative. cases failures usually aren't catastrophic, but they aren't exactly my idea of a good time

.

i still stand by my statement that glock 'cheats' by using what should be chamber for feed ramp. please don't throw rocks at me or poke me with pointy sticks .


frye

Last edited by fryeg7; 03-07-2007 at 19:56..
fryeg7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2007, 20:42   #8
45gunner
Senior Member
 
45gunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,348
Quote:
Originally posted by domzilla9
A case head failure is not the same thing as a Kboom. You are confusing these two terms.

CCI Blazer Aluminum is total crap. CCI Blazer Brass runs hot and cold, and the best thing I can say about it is that it's a commonly available low-cost brass cased brand and that I've had great results reloading CCI brass.

It sounds like you're picky about ammo. And there is no good reason to not be picky. You may want to seriously consider buying a Dillon progressive reloading press and start reloading 9mm. Reloading isn't about saving money. It's about getting the exact kind of ammunition that you want. It's also great therapy for folks with ADD and OCD.

Actually a Kaboom is the same as as case failure since the case must fail for the Kaboom to occur.

Granted there may be different degrees of failure but there all called Kaboom.

To see a discussion on the Topic see

http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread....hreadid=472841

Below is the Wilkpedia definition.

[edit] Case failure reports
Beretta 96 Feed Ramp
Beretta 96 Feed Ramp

The .40 S&W has been noted in a number of cartridge case failures, particularly in Glock pistols due to the relatively weak case of the .40 S&W, given its high working pressure,[8] and lack of full chamber support. In particular, the feed ramp on the Glock .40 S&W pistols are larger than normal, which leaves the rear bottom of the case unsupported, and it is in this unsupported area that the cases fail. Most, but not all, of the failures have occurred with reloaded or remanufactured ammunition. Cartridges loaded at or above the SAAMI pressure, or slightly oversized cases which fire slightly out of battery are often considered to be the cause of these failures. These failures are referred to by many as "kaBooms" or "kB!" for short. While these case failures do not often injure the person holding the pistol, the venting of high pressure gas tends to eject the magazine out of the magazine well in a spectacular fashion, and usually destroys the pistol. In some cases, the barrel will also fail, blowing the top of the chamber off.
Beretta 96 Extractor Notch
Beretta 96 Extractor Notch

While the .40 S&W is far from the only cartridge to suffer from case failures, it is more susceptible for a number of reasons. The .40 S&W works at fairly high pressures (33,000 psi typical, but 35,000 SAAMI max) for a large caliber handgun cartridge, significantly more than, say, the .45 ACP.[9] Since the .40 S&W is a wide cartridge for its length, and is often adapted to frames designed for the equally long but narrower 9 x 19 mm cartridge, the length of the feed ramp must be longer to provide the same angle, which causes the feed ramp to extend into the chamber. This in turn leaves more of the case head unsupported. While this is not necessarily unsafe, it is reducing the margin of safety; when exacerbated by out of battery firing (leaving even more case head unexposed) and potentially weakened brass (due to reloading) these factors appear to lead to the higher incidents of chamber failure.

[edit]
__________________
Democracy is two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for dinner, Liberty is one well armed sheep contesting the vote

Last edited by 45gunner; 03-07-2007 at 22:14..
45gunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2007, 17:24   #9
ciwsguy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Metro Louisville KY
Posts: 205
Domzilla9,
What is your objection to CCI Blazer Aluminum? Did you or someone you know have a bad experience with it? Curious, as other ammo reviews indicate that most shooters like Blazer Aluminum 9mm. I understand that the aluminum cases are aircraft grade aluminum, which is certainly not just recycled soda cans.

Thanks.
ciwsguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2007, 19:11   #10
fryeg7
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 80
Quote:
Originally posted by ciwsguy
Domzilla9,
What is your objection to CCI Blazer Aluminum? Did you or someone you know have a bad experience with it? Curious, as other ammo reviews indicate that most shooters like Blazer Aluminum 9mm. I understand that the aluminum cases are aircraft grade aluminum, which is certainly not just recycled soda cans.

Thanks.
not trying to answer for dom, but i've heard reports of extraction problems due to the cases expanding more than brass and sticking in chambers that aren't so smooth. it also makes a pinkish-purple muzzle flash .

i have used it a few times personally and have not had any issues though.

frye
fryeg7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2007, 15:02   #11
ciwsguy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Metro Louisville KY
Posts: 205
Did not see a reply from Domzilla on my inquiry about why he disliked Blazer aluminum ammo, but I decided to try the Blazer 9mm aluminum case and find out for myself. Boy Dom, you were wrong calling Blazer aluminum crap. This is fairly decent ammo. No jams in my G19 and I have to admit with the box I shot that it is very clean burning. The cases appear to be reinforced at the base with a unique looking primer that ejects into the firing chamber in two places, not one as you will see in Brass casings.

No purple or pink muzzle flash either .
ciwsguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2007, 15:48   #12
45gunner
Senior Member
 
45gunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,348
Quote:
Originally posted by fryeg7
not trying to answer for dom, but i've heard reports of extraction problems due to the cases expanding more than brass and sticking in chambers that aren't so smooth. it also makes a pinkish-purple muzzle flash .

i have used it a few times personally and have not had any issues though.

frye
Some people also think that since the Aluminum is weaker than brass that it is more sensitive to barrel pressure problems.
An example:

An gun that has an inexpensive barrel that may also be fouled is used to shoot an Aluminum cased bullet. Since the Aluminum is weaker than brass it could blow the barrel where the Brass bullet would not.

I have not personelly seen this.

The powder from these bullets are also terribly dirt.

Another thing if you reload Aluminum cased bullet cannot be reused and most gun ranges sell the brass and don't want to have to pick through cases they cannot use.

Just a hint. Even if you don't reload buy brass cased bullet. Pick up the casing and give or sell them to the person that does. Everyone comes out in the long run that way.

.45 cal brass sells for $79.00 /1000 from Dillon. Sell them to your buddy for half price since they have not been polished.
__________________
Democracy is two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for dinner, Liberty is one well armed sheep contesting the vote

Last edited by 45gunner; 03-19-2007 at 15:52..
45gunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2007, 16:34   #13
domzilla9
Phone Flinger
 
domzilla9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,815
Send a message via AIM to domzilla9 Send a message via Yahoo to domzilla9
Quote:
Originally posted by ciwsguy
Did not see a reply from Domzilla on my inquiry about why he disliked Blazer aluminum ammo, but I decided to try the Blazer 9mm aluminum case and find out for myself. Boy Dom, you were wrong calling Blazer aluminum crap. This is fairly decent ammo. No jams in my G19 and I have to admit with the box I shot that it is very clean burning. The cases appear to be reinforced at the base with a unique looking primer that ejects into the firing chamber in two places, not one as you will see in Brass casings.

No purple or pink muzzle flash either .
The primers that CCI uses in its Blazer aluminum case ammo are not in any way unique. They are Berdan primers, which you will commonly see in surplus military ammunition. The Blazer Brass product uses the Boxer primer that you are more familiar with.

Congratulations on buying a lot of Blazer Aluminum cartridges that are have properly sized bullets, a consistent burn rate, a consistent overall length and no ignition problems. I hope that you're just as lucky when you buy your next batch of CCI Blazer Aluminum, but I wouldn't bet on it. YMMV. Shoot about 3 to 4K of it and then dial me back on your results.

My main complaints about Blazer aluminum are the muzzle flash (not a problem when shooting outdoors), sooty cases (resulting from low pressure) and inconsistent velocity (which equals poor accuracy).

Recoil, pressure and velocity do not have a linear relationship. The chronographs don't lie. Chrono some of your blazer aluminum loads and you might be surprised by the inconsistent and unimpressive velocities that they produce.

But, if you're shooting paper at 7 yards none of this matters.
__________________
Politics n. A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. The conduct of public affairs for private advantage. Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

Last edited by domzilla9; 03-19-2007 at 16:41..
domzilla9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2007, 16:42   #14
domzilla9
Phone Flinger
 
domzilla9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,815
Send a message via AIM to domzilla9 Send a message via Yahoo to domzilla9
Quote:
Originally posted by ciwsguy
I understand that the aluminum cases are aircraft grade aluminum, which is certainly not just recycled soda cans.
If aluminum is so great, then why is it not reloadable?



besides, I think that the CCI cases are made from 6061-T6 alloy which may technically be "aircraft grade" but is not exactly anything special.
__________________
Politics n. A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. The conduct of public affairs for private advantage. Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

Last edited by domzilla9; 03-19-2007 at 16:48..
domzilla9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2007, 20:15   #15
Berretta9
Senior Member
 
Berretta9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Louisville, Ky.
Posts: 1,076
Dom and 45gunner are right. Blazer alluminmum ammo is crap. Not consistant, smells bad and has that horrible excessive flash. I won't shoot it even for free. Last place we use to shoot wouldn't even let it in the building.
Berretta9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2007, 15:59   #16
ciwsguy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Metro Louisville KY
Posts: 205
Dom,
Thanks for the honest feedback. Being a newcomer to the forum, I must reserve judgement of Blazer. As you said, if my goal is to punch holes in paper targets, which it is, Blazer works OK. If I were into competition shooting which I am not, I might think differently. Reloading is totally out for me. Not interested in that at all.

If aluminum is so great, then why is it not reloadable? For the same reason you don't see aluminum wiring installed in the walls of new residential housing. AL thermal, ductile & mallability properties are much different than CU or Brass. It seriously weakens and breaks when attempting to form it more than once. Its thermal expansion properties are also not as good as CU. But for one-shot throw away use, it's acceptable. Even brass casings can fail, as was evidenced by the case rupture of ADCOM NATO ammo. Also, 6061-T6 is good enough for the USN in its aircraft and shipboard weapon systems, so for a one-shot ammo case, it is acceptable and is tough material.

Very dirty burning powder? Not from what I shot the other day. It hands-down was much cleaner than the Remington UMC and WWB brass I fired the same day.
ciwsguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2007, 10:45   #17
Picketeer
Senior Member
 
Picketeer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Fort Worth, TX Area
Posts: 1,909
Quote:
Originally posted by domzilla9
A case head failure is not the same thing as a Kboom. You are confusing these two terms.

CCI Blazer Aluminum is total crap. CCI Blazer Brass runs hot and cold, and the best thing I can say about it is that it's a commonly available low-cost brass cased brand and that I've had great results reloading CCI brass.

It sounds like you're picky about ammo. And there is no good reason to not be picky. You may want to seriously consider buying a Dillon progressive reloading press and start reloading 9mm. Reloading isn't about saving money. It's about getting the exact kind of ammunition that you want. It's also great therapy for folks with ADD and OCD.
You are right on the CCI Blazer Aluminum......It is TOTAL CRAP! Have not tried the Brass!
Picketeer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2007, 12:17   #18
Berretta9
Senior Member
 
Berretta9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Louisville, Ky.
Posts: 1,076
It's not much better.
Berretta9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2007, 12:38   #19
45gunner
Senior Member
 
45gunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,348
I shot CCI brass case bullets at a recent IPSC match. Its ok up close but at 45 yrds its a little inaccurate. No misfeeds.

I did not have ANY trouble make major PF with it out of my G35. 184 pf.
__________________
Democracy is two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for dinner, Liberty is one well armed sheep contesting the vote

Last edited by 45gunner; 04-02-2007 at 12:48..
45gunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2007, 12:59   #20
Houngan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 286
It was a bit soft from my Beretta with the 4-inch barrel, the 165s barely made major.

I've never had a problem with the aluminum, but then I've never shot bullseye with it, either.

H.
Houngan is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 20:57.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,582
369 Members
1,213 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 16:42