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Old 03-13-2007, 20:21   #41
mayberrypd
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Quote:
Originally posted by Auburn
I just joined VCDL today too...as the direct result of this situation.
+1, I should have done it a long time ago and have put it off. They are great, every gun owner in VA should do what they can to support them.
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Old 03-14-2007, 06:44   #42
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I'm going to reactivate my membership myself! Even though I don't agree with the VCDL's methods 100% of the time, thier action in Roanoke deserves every Virginia gun owners support!

Way to go Phil!
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Old 03-14-2007, 07:23   #43
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I am curious

I am curious...
Does anyone have a copy of the 135,000 persons with CCP/CCW, they would E-Mail me. The names only! Without the addresses and Social Security Numbers.
I do not accept private mail so, post and I will let you know how to get it to me.
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Old 03-14-2007, 15:32   #44
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Actually, it is illegal to put out or post the addresses, phone numbers, or places of employment of crime victims, or the same of the victims and family of domestic violence, family violence, or sexual crimes. As some CHP holders fall under this group, it was illegal to post their addreses, and it was illegal for the state police to give them to him. I already have an attorney looking into it, as we fall into this category.
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Old 03-14-2007, 16:20   #45
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If you have some time to hit all the companies that do business with the Roanoke Times here is the list....

http://www.roanoke.com/BizListings/
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Old 03-14-2007, 16:30   #46
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Response from RT

We have received your e-mail regarding the Concealed Handgun Permit database, and your comments are important to us.



We removed the database from our website on Monday afternoon. At this time, we have no plans to publish this information again.



Our editorial content this week will continue to promote Sunshine Week, and the importance of open government and public records.



Regards,



Dan Radmacher

Editorial Page Editor

The Roanoke Times
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Old 03-14-2007, 17:51   #47
Auburn
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Here's a great editorial I found over on ARF from the local newspaper in Shelbyville TN:

link

Publishing addresses legal, but not right
Wednesday, March 14, 2007
By Brian Mosely

You might not have noticed, but this is Sunshine Week, where news outlets across the country focus on the importance of open government and public records.

This is a good idea, since an Associated Press survey of all 50 states found that open meetings and records laws are "sporadically enforced," and that "penalties for failure to comply are mild and violators almost always walk away with nothing more than a reprimand."

This writer and many of my co-workers over the years have dealt with this situation at one time or another. Secret meetings and the refusal to release documents are still encountered in this business, although not as frequently as in the past.

But a Virginia paper used this occasion not to expose wrongdoings or to call for accountability in their local governments. Instead, the Roanoke Times used Sunshine Week to justify publishing the names and addresses on their website of over 135,000 people in the New River Valley who has a concealed handgun permit.

To those who would say that it is none of the public's business if someone is packing heat, the paper's editorial writer, Christian Trejbal, disagreed by saying "the government handles the permitting, it is everyone's business."

"There are good reasons the records are open to public scrutiny. People might like to know if their neighbors carry. Parents might like to know if a member of the carpool has a pistol in the glove box. Employers might like to know if employees are bringing weapons to the office."

Trejbal even admitted that some of the data was probably inaccurate, but they published it anyway. One part of the editorial really stuck out though: "A state that eagerly puts sex offender data online complete with an interactive map could easily do the same with gun permits, but it does not."

Well, Mr. Trejbal, that's because sex offenders are convicted criminals, where as citizens who have applied for a handgun permit are not. What is disturbing is that Mr. Trejbal appears to be equating law-abiding gun owners with perverts, which says a lot about his mind-set.

Why not post everyone's name and address on welfare and food stamps, or post the medical records, names and addresses of everyone who uses Medicaid? Should we post how much each taxpayer pays or owes? How about we post everyone's driver's license numbers, Social Security information and the names and addresses of everyone who ...

You see where this is going ... I'm sure identity thieves would love those types of stories. It is obvious that the only reason Mr. Trejbal wanted this information published is his anti-gun bias, because his column also included this:

"This is not about being for or against guns. There are plenty of reasons people choose to carry weapons: fear of a violent ex-lover, concern about criminals or worry that the king of England might try to get into your house."

Ho, Ho.

Actually, this could save the lives of area criminals since the paper might as well have titled the gun permit list "People You Should Not Mess With." They could have been even more helpful had they published a map of places to avoid ... and homes less likely to be dangerous to break into. Perhaps they should print maps of people with expensive jewelry, rare coin collections, and valuable artwork as well.

To say there was an outcry from the public over the paper's move would be an understatement. On the newspaper's Internet message board, there were complaints from law enforcement officials who have concealed-carry permits for when they are off-duty. It would appear they are not too happy about having their names and addresses published so that anyone with a grudge can find them and their families.

One message came from a women who claimed that her ex-husband had used the list to track her down and had already contacted her. "I've moved twice to get away from a violent ex. Now I have to move again. I really appreciate you publishing my address. Gee, thanks."

On Monday afternoon, the paper pulled the database from its site. The president and publisher of the Roanoke Times, Debbie Meade, said that she was "concerned enough about complaints from readers to act out of an abundance of caution."

"Our concern is that if the information should have been protected, and it wasn't, then we don't want to run it," Meade said.

But the damage has already been done. If even one person is harmed due to the actions of this writer and the editors, it wouldn't be too difficult to imagine a class action suit being filed over such an invasion of privacy.

The fact is, there's a big difference between using your job as a journalist to uncover the truth and to harass citizens whose choices you disagree with by publishing their addresses for the world to see. The Sunshine Laws are there so we can have transparent government, not so a reporter can "out" those he or she ideologically opposes.

What Mr. Trejbal did may have been legal ... but that doesn't make it right. Instead, it was very, very wrong.
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Old 03-14-2007, 20:44   #48
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Re: Response from RT

Quote:
Originally posted by Slinger646
We have received your e-mail regarding the Concealed Handgun Permit database, and your comments are important to us.
We removed the database from our website on Monday afternoon. At this time, we have no plans to publish this information again.
Our editorial content this week will continue to promote Sunshine Week, and the importance of open government and public records.

Regards,
Dan Radmacher

Editorial Page Editor

The Roanoke Times
Received the same email....
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Old 03-14-2007, 20:51   #49
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Re: I am curious

Quote:
Originally posted by MADISON
I am curious...
Does anyone have a copy of the 135,000 persons with CCP/CCW, they would E-Mail me. The names only! Without the addresses and Social Security Numbers.
I do not accept private mail so, post and I will let you know how to get it to me.
MADISON, why don't we just let the list fade away...

Thanks...
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Old 03-15-2007, 10:45   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gunfixr
Actually, it is illegal to put out or post the addresses, phone numbers, or places of employment of crime victims, or the same of the victims and family of domestic violence, family violence, or sexual crimes. As some CHP holders fall under this group, it was illegal to post their addreses, and it was illegal for the state police to give them to him. I already have an attorney looking into it, as we fall into this category.
They weren't posted as such, or identified as such. Their employers weren't posted, either, as far as I know.

If I post your name in the paper because you won the lottery, or because you were crowned the county fair queen, the fact that you also happen to be a prior victim of a crime is irrelevant. You don't get put on a "no publish" list just because you were victimized before, if the reason for publishing your name has nothing to do with your prior victimization.

Let me know what your attorney finds. I strongly suspect that there is no recourse against the paper, only - maybe - against the Commonwealth for releasing the info in the first place.
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Old 03-15-2007, 12:36   #51
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The names of employers weren't posted, niether were their phone numbers. I was merely loosely quoting the law which states that posting any of that info is illegal. And not listing them as crime victims doesn't matter. The point is that perpetrators have a right to know who their accusers are but generally only their names. If victims have moved and gotten a CHP to escape a perpetrator, the Perp would now be able to know exactly where they are. One lady, responding in the comments section of the newspapers' website, said that her vilent ex didn't know where she lived as she had moved twice. He had seen her name and address on this posting and had already contacted her, now she was going to have to move again. My family is the victim of a sexual crime against my son. We had moved since, and the convicted perp, who is now free, didn't know where we now lived. I have an unlisted unpublished number so he cannot just look me up in the phone book. This creep may now know where my son lives. Lottery winners do not have their addesses posted per law to keep greedy theives away. You can't get anything from DMV.
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Old 03-15-2007, 18:52   #52
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I'm actually a little concerned.

That list was supposed to have been accurate as of the 18th of January IIRC.

I checked as soon as the web site had it posted. My name wasn't on the list. I've had a permit for over 5 years and renewed well before the 18th.

Does that mean the State Police will think my permit is invalid?
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Old 03-15-2007, 19:12   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by vafish
I'm actually a little concerned.

That list was supposed to have been accurate as of the 18th of January IIRC.

I checked as soon as the web site had it posted. My name wasn't on the list. I've had a permit for over 5 years and renewed well before the 18th.

Does that mean the State Police will think my permit is invalid?
I have been wondering the same thing. My name was on the list but several friends of mine weren't. I also wonder (and this is just me, a very mild hypothesis) if the State Police only have the permit information on anyone that has used the permit to bypass the 30 law. The 135,000 number seems a little low but I have a hard time judging since everyone I know and deal with has one. It is on the form and we have to input the information in the computer when running a background check. When the law was first introduced the VSP would request a faxed copy of the permit almost everytime the person used it the first time. The only reason I wonder this is because the only people I have ran into (a couple of close friends) that werent on the list said they have never used their permit to buy a gun. Again it is just a theory, with not real support. It just seems wierd since all of the paperwork is done through the local courts and issued by the local courts, of course since it is linked to your DMV records the State should have an accurate report.
Consider yourself lucky, atleast you weren't on the list!
Regards
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Old 03-15-2007, 23:40   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by vafish
I'm actually a little concerned.

That list was supposed to have been accurate as of the 18th of January IIRC.

I checked as soon as the web site had it posted. My name wasn't on the list. I've had a permit for over 5 years and renewed well before the 18th.

Does that mean the State Police will think my permit is invalid?
Could be you may be in the gap before your paperwork hits the system. But at the VCDL meeting tonight PVC brought up that someone had some trouble over a situation like yours.
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Old 03-16-2007, 17:59   #55
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VCDL

I just joined. I should have some time ago.

Did anyone "capture" the list? I would like to know if I made the hit parade.
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Old 03-16-2007, 18:29   #56
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Re: VCDL

Quote:
Originally posted by watsoncb
I just joined. I should have some time ago.

Did anyone "capture" the list? I would like to know if I made the hit parade.
watsoncb, the fewer copies of the "list" that survive, the better.

If you have a CHP and want to know if you are on the list, call the VSP office in Richmond and ask.

We need to let the "list" fade away...

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Old 03-16-2007, 18:43   #57
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Re: Re: VCDL

Quote:
Originally posted by RussP
watsoncb, the fewer copies of the "list" that survive, the better.

If you have a CHP and want to know if you are on the list, call the VSP office in Richmond and ask.

We need to let the "list" fade away...

Thats the problem though, we can't do anything about the list because anyone can get it, being a public record and all. Ignoring it won't make it go away or remove the danger it poses.
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Old 03-16-2007, 19:37   #58
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Re: Re: Re: VCDL

Quote:
Originally posted by longwatch2k1
Thats the problem though, we can't do anything about the list because anyone can get it, being a public record and all. Ignoring it won't make it go away or remove the danger it poses.
True, longwatch2k1, it isn't the long term problem, but as I said, the fewer "lists" out there....

This coming week I plan on meeting with a senior Senator to discuss the long term solution to our problem.

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