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Old 03-13-2007, 18:18   #1
IPDBrad
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Defenseless Children

State cites child-care owner carrying gun


By Robert Annis
Robert.Annis@Topics.com

CARMEL, Ind. -- The state's Family and Social Services Administration cited the co-owner of a local child day-care center with carrying a concealed firearm at the facility.


Richard Lyday, co-owner of Heartland Hall Child Development Center, 11540 N. Meridian St., told FSSA investigators that he carried the weapon for personal protection and to provide security for the children.

Approximately 240 children are enrolled in the day-care program at Heartland Hall, according to Lyday.
Heartland Hall is licensed by the FSSA as a child day-care center, said Dennis Rosebrough, FSSA communications director.

The firearm citation carries no fine or punishment, he said. However, day-care centers must correct issues revealed in citations or face the possiblity of closure.
Rosebrough said it was the first instance that he's aware of where an Indiana child-care center owner or employee received a citation for carrying a gun at a day-care center.

After receiving the citation Feb. 2, Lyday immediately removed the firearm from the center, according to state documents. Lyday, a retired information systems executive, works full-time at Heartland Hall with his co-owner wife, Sally Lyday.

"The sole reason I have possessed a firearm is for the protection of the children who are entrusted to us everyday," Richard Lyday said in an e-mail.

"We have been fortunate to have maintained an excellent and stable clientele," he said. "Having said that, it is conceivable, although unlikely, that an individual could present himself who could pose a risk for the children. Before possessing a gun on the premises, I satisfied myself that I am within my rights to carry a gun on school property . . ."

Lyday has a valid permit for the gun, said Lori DeWeese, licensing consultant for FSSA.
Joyce McComiskey, business manager at Peter Rabbit Nursery School in Carmel, said firearms are not allowed at state-licensed preschools. She said most reputable facilities provide adequate security without staff members carrying weapons.

"It's dangerous and against state code," she said.
Edward Sehrager, Lyday's attorney, said in a letter to FSSA that his client was within his rights to have a gun on the premises, citing Indiana code pertaining to schools.

FSSA countered that Heartland Hall is not licensed as a school, but as a child day-care center. Indiana law prohibits the use or possession of firearms at a child-care center unless the person is required to as a condition of employment, Rosebrough said.
Sehrager and FSSA attorneys are deliberating whether Lyday's job description includes acting as a security guard, Rosebrough said.
"It's a serious issue we're giving a lot of attention to," he said. "We want to make sure our licensed centers are safe for children."

Rosebrough said FSSA field inspectors could perform surprise inspections of Heartland Hall to ensure Lyday is complying with the order not to carry a firearm.
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Old 03-13-2007, 19:41   #2
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Won't somebody please think of the children.....


Looks like he was. Good for him, I sez.
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Old 03-13-2007, 20:16   #3
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Quote:
FSSA countered that Heartland Hall is not licensed as a school, but as a child day-care center. Indiana law prohibits the use or possession of firearms at a child-care center unless the person is required to as a condition of employment, Rosebrough said.
Quote:
Sehrager and FSSA attorneys are deliberating whether Lyday's job description includes acting as a security guard, Rosebrough said.
Is the FSSA ready to provide it's own security guard, since it is depriving this business of any effective security?

Nope.

Idiots...
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Old 03-13-2007, 22:53   #4
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Morons on a power trip. Sounds just like the guvmint to me. Sounds like he just needs to modify his job description a bit and he's good to go.
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Old 03-14-2007, 05:31   #5
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Re: Defenseless Children

Quote:
Originally posted by IPDBrad
She said most reputable facilities provide adequate security without staff members carrying weapons.
That sentence doesn't sound right at all. The words most and adequate don't belong in such a bold proclamation.
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Old 03-14-2007, 06:23   #6
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All of more reason to exempted LTCH holders from the govnernmentally-approved slaughter pen of "no guns in school" statute!
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Old 03-14-2007, 07:16   #7
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What a load of BS. I've often wondered what would happen if someone decided to wander into the place where my kid goes.
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Old 03-14-2007, 07:48   #8
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Where's the statute that states no guns in Day care?

I do remember reading no guns in school but I also remember security personnel authorized by the school administration are exempt.

I take it from reading the article there are seperate regulations governing licensed day cares.
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Old 03-14-2007, 08:04   #9
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This is another example of state agencies making administrative rules about personal weapons outside of the legislative process. The current pre-emption in the law has no teeth for any state administrative body.
DNR on SD handguns in the field and on property.
Health dept offices with the gun busters sign.
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Old 03-14-2007, 08:26   #10
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Is the NRA aware of this? They may be willing to lend this man a hand with the legal aspects (lawyers, etc.).
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Old 03-14-2007, 08:44   #11
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I do not think assistance is needed. This was a slap on the wrist without penalty.
I just searched several areas of Indiana Code andthe administrative rules and did not find anything relating to this.
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Old 03-14-2007, 09:11   #12
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I wassurprised that the Hamilton Co. Persecutor hasn't charge this fellow! The same Persecutor who said it was "illegal to have a gun w/in 1000' of my church, because there is 'sunday school'!"

I was thinking if he is charged, it could be a good case to have the law declared unconstitutional. You know, the "People have a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of themself & the State of IN"(Section 1, article 32, IN Constitution) & all!
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Old 03-14-2007, 09:17   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by minuteman32
The same Persecutor who said it was "illegal to have a gun w/in 1000' of my church, because there is 'sunday school'!"
You've got to be kidding. I had not heard that. Did he really think people would take that serious?
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Old 03-14-2007, 09:53   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by mpholic
Where's the statute that states no guns in Day care?

I do remember reading no guns in school but I also remember security personnel authorized by the school administration are exempt.

I take it from reading the article there are seperate regulations governing licensed day cares.

IC 35-47-9-1
Exemptions from chapter
35-47-9-1 Sec. 1. This chapter does not apply to the following:
(1) A:
(A) federal;
(B) state; or
(C) local;
law enforcement officer.
(2) A person who has been employed or authorized by:
(A) a school; or
(B) another person who owns or operates property being used by a school for a school function;
to act as a security guard, perform or participate in a school function, or participate in any other activity authorized by a school.
(3) A person who:
(A) may legally possess a firearm; and
(B) possesses the firearm in a motor vehicle that is being operated by the person to transport another person to or from a school or a school function.
As added by P.L.140-1994, SEC.11.


IC 35-47-9-2



THis must be some FSSA Admin thing, the guy was the owner, he can authorize him self..
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Old 03-14-2007, 10:06   #15
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The above rules apply to schools. The day care is not considered a school.

FSSA countered that Heartland Hall is not licensed as a school, but as a child day-care center. Indiana law prohibits the use or possession of firearms at a child-care center unless the person is required to as a condition of employment

Other than FSSA administrative rules I don't see any legislation against this. I'm not a lawyer and don't pretend to be I just want to understand whether this is really legal or just governmental pressure with no law to back up it up.
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Old 03-14-2007, 10:15   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by mpholic
The above rules apply to schools. The day care is not considered a school.

-
See D 3 ..


IC 35-41-1-24.7


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"School property" defined
35-41-1-24.7 Sec. 24.7. "School property" means the following:
(1) A building or other structure owned or rented by:
(A) a school corporation;
(B) an entity that is required to be licensed under IC 12-17.2 or IC 31-27;
(C) a private school that is not supported and maintained by funds realized from the imposition of a tax on property, income, or sales; or
(D) a federal, state, local, or nonprofit program or service operated to serve, assist, or otherwise benefit children who are at least three (3) years of age and not yet enrolled in kindergarten, including the following:
(i) A Head Start program under 42 U.S.C. 9831 et seq.
(ii) A special education preschool program.
(iii) A developmental child care program for preschool children.
(2) The grounds adjacent to and owned or rented in common with a building or other structure described in subdivision (1).
As added by P.L.296-1987, SEC.4. Amended by P.L.34-1991, SEC.27; P.L.9-1991, SEC.95; P.L.2-1992, SEC.880; P.L.81-1992, SEC.38; P.L.1-1993, SEC.240; P.L.160-1994, SEC.1; P.L.1-2005, SEC.227; P.L.145-2006, SEC.370.
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Old 03-14-2007, 10:53   #17
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Regardless of whose definition of "school" you choose to believe, it is a FELONY to have any kind of gun on any number of places that have kids located there! There is no misdemenor charge that it can be lowered to.

Get & read, "Indiana Handgun Law". It will infuriate you to find out all of the places that you can NOT take your gun into!!!
I was so mad I couldn't see straight after reading it the 1st time!

That is why we need to push for full exemption from ANY off limits places for LTC holders (@ least!).

(Okay, okay, maybe a few aren't a bad idea. Someplace like inside a prison, inside a court ROOM ... not court HOUSE, & then, only if YOU are involved in that particular case, might be okay, but nothing more.)
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Old 03-14-2007, 11:30   #18
mpholic
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Quote:
Originally posted by minuteman32
Get & read, "Indiana Handgun Law".
That is something I am probably overdue in accomplishing.

Where can I get a copy?

Thank You
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Old 03-14-2007, 11:53   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by mpholic
That is something I am probably overdue in accomplishing.

Where can I get a copy?

Thank You
If you're going to the 1500 this weekend, the author will be there selling them (I should be @ the table next to his, making ear plugs).
Or, you could try; http://www.indianahandgunlaw.com/
I usually have some copies @ my UT LTC classes, as well.
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Old 03-14-2007, 12:33   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by minuteman32
Regardless of whose definition of "school" you choose to believe, it is a FELONY to have any kind of gun on any number of places that have kids located there! There is no misdemenor charge that it can be lowered to.

Thats why I think it was an Administrative rule and not a LAw that the guy was cited for..
If it was a Law, then it would be the school ban, and he should be exempt from that..
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