M16 carbine

CatsMeow · 08-30-2007, 02:55

Hi all,

Just for academic discussion, what is the proper designation for the pre-M4 weapon we commonly call the "baby Armalite"?

1. M653 (as the Scout Rangers call them)
2. CAR-15 (as it is commonly known in the States; also in BlackHawk Down, the book)
3. M16A1 carbine (as called by Peter G. Kokalis, formerly of SOF)
4. All of the above?

MOTHERGREEN · 08-30-2007, 03:52

well they are all properly designated. they are all just differen't early versions. its not the same rifle being called differen't things they just toyed around with it a while before they arived at the m4.

cebuboy · 08-30-2007, 05:55

It's called the model 653P, which was made under license by Elisco. We were already using them carbines way before the americans

isuzu · 08-30-2007, 20:02

The "baby" Armalite that were built by Elisco had 16" non-chromed barrels (but with chromed chambers). The Colts that were issued in the Philippines had 14.5" chromelined barrels. Most Eliscos were issued with the PAF, while the Colts were issued with the Special Forces.

CatsMeow · 08-30-2007, 21:28

If I see a Special Forces member or Scout Ranger here carrying one, I'll take a look at it.

The M653, and its predecessor the XM177E2, was never an official issue to the US Army and Marines. I have an article, by Chuck Karwan I think (West Pointer and SF in Vietnam), that says the Special Forces and Force Recon did have a number in their inventories, but experimental models, and they were afraid of turning them in when they broke down for fear that their "unofficial weapons" will be removed from service, which was why, before the M4 was adopted, they had cases of carbines with shot-out barrels, receivers completely in the white, cracked handguards, etc, plus they had to cannibalize other carbines to keep them working. This was why the Force Recon spearheaded the development of the M4. The Army followed suit.

The US Air Force did have some as official issue, but they denominated theirs as GAU. So many variations of the GAU over time that it's quite confusing.

Chuck Karwan did made a special mention of the carbine being officially adopted by the Philippine Army.

saki1611 · 08-30-2007, 21:39

Quote:

Originally posted by isuzu
The "baby" Armalite that were built by Elisco had 16" non-chromed barrels (but with chromed chambers). The Colts that were issued in the Philippines had 14.5" chromelined barrels. Most Eliscos were issued with the PAF, while the Colts were issued with the Special Forces.

i have an issued orig elisco baby armalite, it's a 14.5" chromed chamber. it was issued to me 9yrs ago. i haven't seen a 16" elisco.

cebuboy · 08-31-2007, 03:36

Me too, all the elisco 653P I saw had 14.5" barrels. Have not yet encountered a 16" barreled elisco...

royal glockster · 08-31-2007, 08:12

Proper designation of pre-M4 weapon commonly called "baby M16....my answer is CAR-15 made by Colt..First seen in Vietnam war,AFAIK.

jerrytrini · 08-31-2007, 08:41

check out arredondoaccessories.com click on the AR accessories
you will see three soldiers, the Asian looking one is my son. I believe, they have M-4's? Correct me if I am wrong. This photo was taken several years ago somewhere in the "Sand Box".

bisoy · 08-31-2007, 17:05

could it be that the 16" elisco is a "converted" one?

isuzu · 08-31-2007, 19:20

Quote:

Originally posted by bisoy
could it be that the 16" elisco is a "converted" one?

When you cut a standard 20" barrel by the gas port to convert it, the barrel length would be about 14.5 inches. The ones that I saw that had 16" barrels were from the Scout Rangers who augmented the 11th IB in Negros in the early 80's. The Special Forces carbines had 14.5" barrels.

The first time I've ever seen a "baby" was in the mid '70s. An Air Force soldier who was a townmate showed it to my dad and grandfather when they were issued those brand spanking new carbines.

In fact, one of my close friends has two M16 carbines. One is a Colt with 14.5" barrel and an Elisco with 16" barrel ( I could only imagine how much he pays for renewal of those two rifles

). The Elisco had an aluminum buttstock while the Colt had a plastic buttstock. The Elisco was more accurate than the Colt when we tested them.

cebuboy · 09-02-2007, 00:41

Can you still recall the markings of that 16" carbine? I'm really interested in that varuiant

isuzu · 09-02-2007, 01:12

It was just an Elisco that he got in the late 70's. The markings are the same as the standard Elisco M16s. He got the Colt sometime in '81 and it had a greenish-gray finish.

kcboy · 09-02-2007, 01:26

how much are the charges for license renewal of a high powered rifle like the m16??

cebuboy · 09-02-2007, 07:06

Ok thanks sir isuzu, guess will have to ask around some more

HP firearms license renewal is 3k + the etc fees.

isuzu · 09-02-2007, 09:40

Quote:

Originally posted by cebuboy
Ok thanks sir isuzu, guess will have to ask around some more

HP firearms license renewal is 3k + the etc fees.

I believe the carbines with 16" barrels were the first ones who came out. Could be that subsequent issues may have been changed to a 14.5" barrel. The ones that I saw with the 78th IB in 2001 were barely serviceable (and very old). The rear sights were rusted and wobbly; the barrels almost worn out.

cebuboy · 09-02-2007, 17:42

It will be valued as a collectors item

and btw,the 78th IB is headquartered here in balamban cebu. just paid them a visit last saturday.

CatsMeow · 09-02-2007, 19:30

I saw some pictures of Tom Berenger and Willem Dafoe in Platoon. Their weapons had 16-inch barrels. At first I thought they brought some blank-firing AR-15s from the States (they never fired them on auto in the movie). But since it was filmed in the Philippines, perhaps these were the 16-inch Elisco M653Ps.

The one in the buy-and-sell thread looked like it had a 14.5 inch barrel.

isuzu · 09-02-2007, 20:49

Quote:

Originally posted by cebuboy
It will be valued as a collectors item and btw,the 78th IB is headquartered here in balamban cebu. just paid them a visit last saturday.

One of their drivers was carrying an Elisco "baby" with the wobbly rear sights. We had plans of bringing it to my gunsmith and installing a good sight from a non-working M16, but they suddenly got pulled out of Northern Negros and deployed to Bohol.

CatsMeow's right. That's the "baby" that I'm referring to. I think that was the same length "baby" issued to the Metrocom in the '70s and '80s.