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Old 09-03-2007, 05:28   #1
ede
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Wal Mart No CCW

is it that way at all the wal marts or just the local one to me? it's the only one i've ever seen posted but i don't got to it or any others very often. the sign isn't colored very well to make it stand out more like it's colored to make it somewhat unnoticable.
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Old 09-03-2007, 06:36   #2
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Which Wal Mart is posted?

I live within 20 miles of five Wal Mart stores and none of them are posted.
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Old 09-03-2007, 18:11   #3
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The one here in Marysville has posted the Liquor Department firearms notice on their front door for several months now.

Is it a posting, or a notice based upon the CCW arrest in Marion County AT A WALMART, for vioating the class D permit provision in 2923 (Both stores have active class D permits for sunday sales). I'll let you know after the court case ends and we hear the results.
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Old 09-04-2007, 03:24   #4
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i'd have to look again to be sure but basically it's the pistol with the slash across it and a "no weapons allowed on premiss" sign
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Old 09-04-2007, 14:52   #5
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If a place sells(in any form) beer/booze, don't carry in there.
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Old 09-04-2007, 18:28   #6
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Call WalMart corporate with the manager's name and store's location. Chances are good that somebody local got carried away.

Degoodman, I've heard some about that Marion arrest. In spite of the fact that the town has LOTS of "gunbuster" signage (local police chief must be an anti-gunner), the story of that incident sounds strange. Would love to know just what really went on.
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Old 09-05-2007, 00:19   #7
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I haven't seen any Wal-Marts in central Ohio posted. I go into the Lewis Center, Bethel Rd, Morse Rd and occationally the one in Reynoldsburg and haven't seen any signs. In fact, isn't that where people go after they get their CCW - into Wal-Mart and order nachos? That used to be a thing someplace on GT!
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Old 09-05-2007, 09:25   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Dover
Call WalMart corporate with the manager's name and store's location. Chances are good that somebody local got carried away.

Degoodman, I've heard some about that Marion arrest. In spite of the fact that the town has LOTS of "gunbuster" signage (local police chief must be an anti-gunner), the story of that incident sounds strange. Would love to know just what really went on.
We won't know much more until the trial or after. Ken Hanson is the guy's attorney, so he's got the resident expert on the subject in his corner. I'm sure there's been discovery and all, but Ken's bound by confidentiality, so we won't be hearing anything until it's a matter of record in a trial court.

The situation as I understand it was that the CCW exited his vehicle with a pistol in a holster which another patron saw as he was covering up (and remember open carry is also legal here in most jurisdictions). The patron made the "man with a gun" call. The CCW went into the wal-mart, shopped for 30 - 45 minutes, checked out and returned to his vehicle. While exiting the store, the man was approached by a deputy sheriff, and he dutifully notified the sheriff as required by law. The Sheriff then questioned him as to whether he was just shopping inside that walmart, which he verified that he was. The sheriff then took custody of the mans weapon and placed him under arrest for a violation of ORC 2923.121(A). The walmart in question has a valid Class D-6 liqour permit authorizing sunday sales, and that was the basis for the arrest.
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Old 09-10-2007, 09:41   #9
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We certainly need a clear understanding of this portion of the law. Hopefully, this case will turn out well for the defendant and set a precedent.
I think as it stands right now, it depends on the jurisdiction where one enters such an establishment. I am aware of a couple of incidents whereby an LEO contact (routine), occured in similar (class D) establishments and no arrest was made. We can't however depend on ccw friendly jurisdictions to interpret the law as meaning 'consumed' and not 'sold'. It's just to vague and open to interpretation as it stands.
Ken Hanson is certainly the guy to defend this man. If it is to be won and set a precedent, Ken's the guy to do so.
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Old 09-10-2007, 10:14   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by degoodman
We won't know much more until the trial or after. Ken Hanson is the guy's attorney, so he's got the resident expert on the subject in his corner. I'm sure there's been discovery and all, but Ken's bound by confidentiality, so we won't be hearing anything until it's a matter of record in a trial court.

The situation as I understand it was that the CCW exited his vehicle with a pistol in a holster which another patron saw as he was covering up (and remember open carry is also legal here in most jurisdictions). The patron made the "man with a gun" call. The CCW went into the wal-mart, shopped for 30 - 45 minutes, checked out and returned to his vehicle. While exiting the store, the man was approached by a deputy sheriff, and he dutifully notified the sheriff as required by law. The Sheriff then questioned him as to whether he was just shopping inside that walmart, which he verified that he was. The sheriff then took custody of the mans weapon and placed him under arrest for a violation of ORC 2923.121(A). The walmart in question has a valid Class D-6 liqour permit authorizing sunday sales, and that was the basis for the arrest.
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Old 09-10-2007, 22:19   #11
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Maybe I missed something, but I thought our CCW law stated that establishments serving alcohol was off limits, not ones that sold it.
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Old 09-11-2007, 01:09   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by G37 Commando
Maybe I missed something, but I thought our CCW law stated that establishments serving alcohol was off limits, not ones that sold it.
That's what you get for assuming things not in the codes. People have assumed that the prohibition applies only to premises licensed for on-site consumption, that it only applies to liquor sales and not beer, and several other variations on the theme. Here's the EXACT statute from the ORC:

2923.121(A) No person shall possess a firearm in any room in which liquor is being dispensed in premises for which a D permit has been issued under Chapter 4303. of the Revised Code or in an open air arena for which a permit of that nature has been issued.

That's it. No other words.

Here are the key points.

"Dispensed" is a word not defined in the ORC with an exact legal meaning. The dictionary definition (and keep in mind that the "legal" definition of a word as established by case law or statute can be QUITE different from its "dictionary" definition) of dispensed is "to be sold by portions". Sold, well alcohol is being sold plainly enough. "Portions" is another hangup for many, who assume that portions means "by the drink" for on site consumption. That is a very grave stretch. A 12 ounce bottle of beer is a portion, as is a 750ml of wine or a liter of booze, as are lesser portions of the bottle sold by the drink. Where does the line for "portion" fall? A pharmacist dispenses drugs, and some of the "portions" they dispense are whole sealed containers. The point being is that people who are relying on the "by the drink" definition of "portions" are relying on a hyper-narrow interpretation of portion, one which does not hold up under comparison to other "book" definitions, or other areas of law.

The next point is that the statute mentions class D permit, and it makes NO exception based on the type of Class D permit. MOST class D permits are for establishments that sell alcohol for on site consumption of alcohol. However one type, the class D-6 permit is not for on site consumption. That permit authorizes sunday sales of alcohol. It is still a class D permit however, so by the black letter of the law, any establishment possessing one is off-limits for carry, including any grocery store, gas station, and carry out that sells beer on sunday.

The last point is closely tied to the previous point. NOWHERE in the exact text of the statute is the word "consumption" mentioned anywhere. Whether the alcohol is consumed on site or not makes absolutely no difference. It's just not in the statute. If the alcohol is sold by portions, and sealed retail containers are portions by the book definition, and the establishment has a class D permit, including the class D-6 permit for sunday sales, then carry is prohibited under current black letter law.

If you read the AG's pamphlet carefully regarding these points, you'll notice several things. The first is that the AG mentions VERY SPECIFICALLY that the pamphlet does not constitute legal advice. Second, the language mentions that the class D permit is GENERALLY for places where alcohol is sold for consumption, but the language does not exclude the possibility of exceptions by more stringent language including words like ONLY. Third, The AG places the burden on the citizen to verify the type of permit that an establishment has been issued.

So until there's some case law established by courts of appeal, and ultimately the Ohio Supreme Court, and that could take YEARS, you are taking definite risks by carrying in ANY establishment that has a Class D permit of any type issued for it, including premises that do not authorize on-premises consumption, but have a Class D-6 permit authorizing sunday sales of alcohol.

It would be nice to eliminate the alcohol rule completely, but I'd lay money on hell freezing over before that any day of the week. It just won't happen in our legislature. We could go for a 51% rule, but that would add further complexity to our already convaluted liquor statutes as well as the carry statutes.

I think that as good a way as any to proceed would be to press the legislature to create a separate classification of liquor permit, the C-3 permit, authorizing sunday sales for retail establishments, and leaving the D-6 permit for sunday sales at establishments authorizing on-site consumption. That way it could be sold as an "administrative clarification" of the liquor law, as opposed to a "gun bill" which might allow it to slip through the legislature relatively unnoticed. They already have a seperate fee schedule based on whether the D-6 suppliments a class C permit or a class D permit, so just separate the permits. The nice side effect is that is clarifies the situation for CCW holders immensely.

The other change I'd press for is that any liquor licensee who is statutorially prohibited from CCW should have to display a STANDARDIZED sign, seperate from the optional sign usable by any private property owner, on the entrance to the establishment, eliminating any confusion regarding the permit status of the premises.
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Old 09-13-2007, 13:17   #13
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Can someone tell me approximately when this arrest occured in Marion county? This is the first time I have heard of it and have not seen it discussed on any other forums.

Thanks

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Old 09-13-2007, 17:06   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by ventura
Can someone tell me approximately when this arrest occured in Marion county? This is the first time I have heard of it and have not seen it discussed on any other forums.

Thanks

ventura
It was in mid-May, like a week before Memorial day. It has not garnered much media attention at this point, and thats probably a good thing for now.
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Old 09-13-2007, 19:34   #15
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Great research degoodman.

If this poor sap gets convicted of CCW in a D6 dispensing booze our legal system is an ass.

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Old 09-13-2007, 19:38   #16
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I'd love to look at the details of this myself, but can't seem to find much of a Marion County Clerk of Courts site like some of the bigger counties have. But even so, it would probably be tough for someone with my meager computer skills to find the case in question without acase number, arrestee's name, or something.

Also, the folks at Ohioans For Concealed Carry have begun to discuss this situation on their forum, but nobody there seems to have any definitive info to work with. Degoodman, are there more details that can be shared?
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Old 09-14-2007, 14:30   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Dover
I'd love to look at the details of this myself, but can't seem to find much of a Marion County Clerk of Courts site like some of the bigger counties have. But even so, it would probably be tough for someone with my meager computer skills to find the case in question without acase number, arrestee's name, or something.

Also, the folks at Ohioans For Concealed Carry have begun to discuss this situation on their forum, but nobody there seems to have any definitive info to work with. Degoodman, are there more details that can be shared?
I don't have any more details than what I've given here.

Ken Hanson had mentioned a couple things, keeping in mind that he is currently bound by client confidentiality. First is that he would probably have more info in a week or two, leading me to believe that a plea agreement of some sort is being hammered out, but that's just a guess.

The other thing he mentioned is that until our CCW statute is fixed, we're screwed on carry into walmart, kroger, etc, which I'm guessing means that D-6 is just like the rest of the D permits, and CCW is a no-go in any establishment so licensed.

I, like everybody else, would like to have answers now, but it looks like we'll have to wait a week or two. Hopefully the plea agreement gets the guy down from the big-F down to some kind of misdemeanor and he gets to keep his guns, let alone his permit. But we'll see.
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Old 09-15-2007, 13:15   #18
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Instead of a plea down I kinda hope they push the case and the D6 conundrum gets some case law (in our favor) behind it.
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Old 09-15-2007, 13:31   #19
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Old 09-15-2007, 22:30   #20
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Makes me wonder how many of the approximately 100,000 license holders are aware of this or even read forums such as these.
Most probably figure dispensed means... well... dispensed.
No matter how the law is written there's always some Nazi somewhere ready to twist the meaning so they can harass some law abiding citizen. Truly sickening.
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Old 09-17-2007, 17:55   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by G37 Commando
Maybe I missed something, but I thought our CCW law stated that establishments serving alcohol was off limits, not ones that sold it.
A ++++++++++
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Old 09-17-2007, 18:47   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by SCC
A ++++++++++
Once again people, all I can do is point to the black letter of the statute:

ORC 2923.121(A) No person shall possess a firearm in any room in which liquor is being dispensed in premises for which a D permit has been issued under Chapter 4303. of the Revised Code or in an open air arena for which a permit of that nature has been issued.

Dispensed, no matter what definition you choose to apply to it deals with the SALE of alcohol, not it's consumption. Dispense means:

dis·pense /dɪˈspɛns/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-spens] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -pensed, -pens·ing, noun
–verb (used with object) 1. to deal out; distribute:

or

dis·pense (dĭ-spěns') Pronunciation Key
v. dis·pensed, dis·pens·ing, dis·pens·es
v. tr.
To deal out in parts or portions; distribute

or

dispensed

adjective
distributed or weighted out in carefully determined portions

A whole unopened retail container is a portion.

The other key is the class D liqour permit. Some of those permits are issued to establishments that sell alcohol by the drink, for consumption on the premises. However some, like the D-6 permit authorizing Sunday sales do not, and the law makes NO distinction between them. If the establishment has ANY class D permit, and you take a gun in there, concealed or not by the way, you have comitted a class 5 felony. If the weapon is concealed it's actually a more severe class 3 felony per ORC 2923.12(G)1.

This is serious stuff, with felony penalties on the line. The black letter of the law is clear on this. If there has been a class D permit of any type issued for a premises, carrying of firearms into the establishment is prohibited.
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Old 09-17-2007, 21:15   #23
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Again, if the law is interpreted to mean that dispensing cases of beer out of a cooler for sale at a register is equal to dispensing Jack Daniel's Old No. 7 into a shot glass at the corner bar for immediate ingestion, the law is an ass and so are the people who decide such things.


They will not last long in public position, for we are not a felons of any class by CCW'ing into a Wal Mart, K Mart, or any mart.


To most prudent people (not lawyers & judges) this is dispensing alcohol>>>
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Old 09-22-2007, 07:56   #24
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Possibly a lot of CCW holders are breaking the law unintentionally.
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Old 09-22-2007, 10:43   #25
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Catalina,

You're right. Alot of ccw'ers are UN-intentionally breaking the law. Until recently, I was one of them. I too (along with many, many others), was under the impression that the law made a distinction between 'selling' and 'consuming'. I am (as posted earlier), in my area, aware of numerous times a ccw'er was in such a mart and spoke to an LEO that knew he was carrying. No charges, no arrest, no saying, "hey you're not allowed to do that", NOTHING!
Since hearing of the Marion arrest and charges, I have become aware that indeed one can be charged. I even debated the fact here with numerous people. I still believe it is only enforced in certain (political) areas but, if charged it is a felony and I'm not willing to gamble on that! I also believe that the true INTENT of the law (originally), was to prohibit where 'CONSUMED'. However, with all the high priced anti-gun lawyers about, they found the loophole and made it an issue.
We need to pray that the Marion case is decided in the defendants' favor and, that precedent is set to CLARIFY THE LAW once and for all! This is a big issue. Walmart, Meijer, Kroger, gas stations and just about all mini-marts are some of my priority places to be armed. Especially at night for that one item you find you have to go get! My only salvation if this holds up, is that I live in a tri-state area (Oh., Ky., Ind.) and am moments from both other states where they have 51% laws making even alcohol serving dining establishments ok. That doesn't help most Ohioans though.
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