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Old 10-26-2014, 18:40   #1
GlockViking
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AR ammo question... SSA vs. Black Hills

I am interested in the 77g OTM ammo as my go-to HD ammo and was wondering if anyone has seen data comparing SSA to the Black Hills "flavor. I have fired some of the 69 grain OTM ammo and it was quite good.
Or am I just obsessing over insignificant details?
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Old 10-26-2014, 19:15   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlockViking View Post
I am interested in the 77g OTM ammo as my go-to HD ammo and was wondering if anyone has seen data comparing SSA to the Black Hills "flavor. I have fired some of the 69 grain OTM ammo and it was quite good.
Or am I just obsessing over insignificant details?
Why are you wanting to use a heavy round for HD? That, in my opinion, is a total waste. 77gr. ammo is primarily used for its accuracy and stability at long distances from a 1/7 and 1/8 barrels. All one really needs for HD is 55gr. ammo. Generally, 77gr. Open Tip Match ammo is used for long distance competition shooting. The military uses the Mk262 round for its Designated Marksman Rifles. I use the 77gr. rounds in my Mk12 Mod 0.
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Old 10-26-2014, 20:10   #3
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Too expensive to train with and therefore of limited use for a duty round,

IMHO...

55 or 62 grain get the job done fine inside 150 yards with a 14 or 16 inch barrel.

The only time the heavy rounds are worth the freight is if you are shooting 300-500 yards and even then you really need a 18-22 inch barrel to get the best results, The heavy rounds use a slower burning powder and aren't very sexy in a short barrel. They will work--no doubt. But you aren't buying anything in terms of effectiveness.
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Old 10-26-2014, 20:17   #4
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Originally Posted by jrs93accord View Post
Why are you wanting to use a heavy round for HD? That, in my opinion, is a total waste.
Sounds to me like you have not seen the ballistics testing of these rounds. They are not just for long range shooting.



The 77gr Sierras and 75gr Horn BTHP work well. The Hornadys are the cheaper bullets so you can load them cheaper.

Last edited by dkf; 10-26-2014 at 20:19..
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Old 10-26-2014, 20:31   #5
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I have the Black Hills (in their box and the Colt box) mk262 as well as the SSA duplicate.

I haven't shot a whole lot of either one.

On principle/reputation I prefer the Black Hills stuff.

What little I have shot of the SSA it was indistinguishable from the Black Hills. But I'm probably not the one who would notice a difference even if it was there (at least accuracy wise)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs93accord View Post
Why are you wanting to use a heavy round for HD? That, in my opinion, is a total waste.
What??

It's a great HD round. Have you seen any of the ballistic tests? Or read any real world usage accounts?

It tumbles/fragmets more reliable than ball ammo (like M193 or M855).

My HD rifle is loaded with mk262
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Old 10-26-2014, 20:38   #6
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I use Gold Dots 64grn as my HD round. Great round with excellent ballistics in soft tissue.
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Old 10-26-2014, 20:49   #7
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Guys, we are talking about Home Defense. Usually, any engagement is less than 10 yards. Please explain to me why someone would need 77gr. OTM or SMK ammo for that short of a distance indoors. Why would 55gr. FMJ not be sufficient enough for this application? I will guarantee you this, if I put a couple rounds of XM193 in your chest at 20 feet away, you are going to be hurting real bad, if not real dead. Does anyone doubt this?
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Old 10-26-2014, 21:09   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs93accord View Post
Guys, we are talking about Home Defense. Usually, any engagement is less than 10 yards. Please explain to me why someone would need 77gr. OTM or SMK ammo for that short of a distance indoors. Why would 55gr. FMJ not be sufficient enough for this application? I will guarantee you this, if I put a couple rounds of XM193 in your chest at 20 feet away, you are going to be hurting real bad, if not real dead. Does anyone doubt this?
The OTM tumbles/fragments more reliably.

Nobody said anybody "needs" anything.
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Old 10-26-2014, 21:13   #9
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Originally Posted by jrs93accord View Post
Guys, we are talking about Home Defense. Usually, any engagement is less than 10 yards. Please explain to me why someone would need 77gr. OTM or SMK ammo for that short of a distance indoors. Why would 55gr. FMJ not be sufficient enough for this application? I will guarantee you this, if I put a couple rounds of XM193 in your chest at 20 feet away, you are going to be hurting real bad, if not real dead. Does anyone doubt this?
We know what the use is. You don't seem to understand these OTM rounds and what they do. They are predictable and effective rounds for both short and long ranges. They work well at transferring energy to and staying in the body.

If you want to use XM193 so be it, not everyone else does. Use a cricket bat if you want.

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/ri...75-gr-bthp-tap

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/ri...gr-bthp-t2-tap

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Bal...est6/Test6.htm

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Old 10-26-2014, 21:37   #10
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Fusion/Gold Dot is my HD round of choice, a good 77gr OTM would be second.
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Old 10-27-2014, 06:32   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
Too expensive to train with and therefore of limited use for a duty round,

IMHO...

55 or 62 grain get the job done fine inside 150 yards with a 14 or 16 inch barrel.

The only time the heavy rounds are worth the freight is if you are shooting 300-500 yards and even then you really need a 18-22 inch barrel to get the best results, The heavy rounds use a slower burning powder and aren't very sexy in a short barrel. They will work--no doubt. But you aren't buying anything in terms of effectiveness.
I had seen some gel tests on YT and it seemed to be effective at short(er) ranges, so I thought I would ask the "brain trust".

For the record, it would be coming out of a BCM 16" upper/mid-length gas.

It's certainly not something I would shoot for training, but the SSA option did seem more economical and they are a reliable ammo manufacturer.

Once I determine functionality in my rifle, I want to load up on enough of it 250 - 500rds for any HD/SHTF/hurricane & LA riots type scenario.

I am mostly concerned with soft targets, but that new Hornady TAP looks like a good multi-role round also.
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Old 10-27-2014, 07:04   #12
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Originally Posted by GlockViking View Post
I had seen some gel tests on YT and it seemed to be effective at short(er) ranges, so I thought I would ask the "brain trust".

For the record, it would be coming out of a BCM 16" upper/mid-length gas.

It's certainly not something I would shoot for training, but the SSA option did seem more economical and they are a reliable ammo manufacturer.

Once I determine functionality in my rifle, I want to load up on enough of it 250 - 500rds for any HD/SHTF/hurricane & LA riots type scenario.

I am mostly concerned with soft targets, but that new Hornady TAP looks like a good multi-role round also.

Which Hornady TAP?

The TAP T2 is excellent, but nearly impossible to find for most people.
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Old 10-27-2014, 07:10   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
Too expensive to train with and therefore of limited use for a duty round,

IMHO...

55 or 62 grain get the job done fine inside 150 yards with a 14 or 16 inch barrel.

The only time the heavy rounds are worth the freight is if you are shooting 300-500 yards and even then you really need a 18-22 inch barrel to get the best results, The heavy rounds use a slower burning powder and aren't very sexy in a short barrel. They will work--no doubt. But you aren't buying anything in terms of effectiveness.
Thank you Big Bird.
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Old 10-27-2014, 07:19   #14
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Which Hornady TAP?

The TAP T2 is excellent, but nearly impossible to find for most people.
http://www.hornadyle.com/products/ri...gr-bthp-t2-tap

Read the data without looking at the link to...Hornady's LE page! My bad...
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Old 10-27-2014, 07:24   #15
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Here is a little bit of info for you guys.

"In 1977, NATO members signed an agreement to select a second, smaller caliber cartridge to replace the 7.62×51mm NATO cartridge. Of the cartridges tendered, the 5.56×45mm NATO was successful, but not the 55 gr M193 round used by the U.S. at that time. The wounds produced by the M193 round were so devastating that many consider it to be inhumane. Instead, the Belgian 62 gr SS109 round was chosen for standardization. The SS109 used a heavier bullet with a steel tip and had a lower muzzle velocity for better long-range performance, specifically to meet a requirement that the bullet be able to penetrate through one side of a steel helmet at 600 meters. This requirement made the SS109 (M855) round less capable of fragmentation than the M193 and was considered more humane."

This said, when I was going through Marine Basic Training at MCRD., Parris Island back in 1978, Our PMI (Primary Marksmanship Instructor) had told about what happened just a short time earlier out on the range. A recruit had found a live round one day and had put it into his M16A1 for safe keeping. When they went back out to the range the next day to do some "snapping in" exercises (this requires the charging of the weapon in order to practice you trigger pull) on a barrel with multiple targets painted on it. Well, you sit in a circle around this barrel about 30 feet across from the recruit in front of you. The recruit forgot about the round being in the chamber and when he pulled the trigger, the weapon discharged going through the barrel and hitting the recruit across from him. The round hit him in the upper chest area near the shoulder and exited the back on the opposite side. The recruit survived, but was left paralyzed from the neck down. This is how nasty and effective the M193 round can be in stopping someone. This is why the change was made to the M855.
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Old 10-27-2014, 08:38   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs93accord View Post
Here is a little bit of info for you guys.

"In 1977, NATO members signed an agreement to select a second, smaller caliber cartridge to replace the 7.62×51mm NATO cartridge. Of the cartridges tendered, the 5.56×45mm NATO was successful, but not the 55 gr M193 round used by the U.S. at that time. The wounds produced by the M193 round were so devastating that many consider it to be inhumane. Instead, the Belgian 62 gr SS109 round was chosen for standardization. The SS109 used a heavier bullet with a steel tip and had a lower muzzle velocity for better long-range performance, specifically to meet a requirement that the bullet be able to penetrate through one side of a steel helmet at 600 meters. This requirement made the SS109 (M855) round less capable of fragmentation than the M193 and was considered more humane."

This said, when I was going through Marine Basic Training at MCRD., Parris Island back in 1978, Our PMI (Primary Marksmanship Instructor) had told about what happened just a short time earlier out on the range. A recruit had found a live round one day and had put it into his M16A1 for safe keeping. When they went back out to the range the next day to do some "snapping in" exercises (this requires the charging of the weapon in order to practice you trigger pull) on a barrel with multiple targets painted on it. Well, you sit in a circle around this barrel about 30 feet across from the recruit in front of you. The recruit forgot about the round being in the chamber and when he pulled the trigger, the weapon discharged going through the barrel and hitting the recruit across from him. The round hit him in the upper chest area near the shoulder and exited the back on the opposite side. The recruit survived, but was left paralyzed from the neck down. This is how nasty and effective the M193 round can be in stopping someone. This is why the change was made to the M855.
Who would have known the Marines were so stupid as to have recruits pointing rifles at other recruits and then pulling the trigger.

Reminds me to take the "this is what I was taught by the ___" people with a grain of salt.

As it turns out the M855/SS109 is no better than M193. The penetration of a helmet requirement is largely considered to be a pretty silly reason to select it, and most people find the 55gr M193 to be more accurate than the 62gr with fewer variations/inconsistencies, especially lot-to-lot
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Last edited by Warp; 10-27-2014 at 08:39..
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Old 10-27-2014, 08:38   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlockViking View Post
I am interested in the 77g OTM ammo as my go-to HD ammo and was wondering if anyone has seen data comparing SSA to the Black Hills "flavor. I have fired some of the 69 grain OTM ammo and it was quite good.
Or am I just obsessing over insignificant details?
To answer your question, both manufacturers have good reputations. You’ll be fine with either one.
My HD load is Gold Dot or one of the other 64g SP loadings. I keep about 200 rounds of defensive ammo at the house. If I need to deal with some end of the world scenario I have plenty of FMJ.
Some bullets are better than others but there are no magic ones. It’s all about shot placement.
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Old 10-27-2014, 18:31   #18
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This is from a 7.5" barrel so hard to compare to the XM193



Both from 21' or less.
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Old 10-27-2014, 18:46   #19
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7.5" barrel?

Totally different animal than a proper length barrel (for 5.56)
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Old 10-27-2014, 18:56   #20
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Quote:
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http://youtu.be/RZPGSiDs5_k

This is from a 7.5" barrel so hard to compare to the XM193

http://youtu.be/GXFKI5LgaNg


Both from 21' or less.
Thank you Truckin' Joe. That certainly helps prove my argument.
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