GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-02-2008, 18:26   #1
Apocalypse_Now
Molon Labe
 
Apocalypse_Now's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Outer Limits
Posts: 2,772
Hard cast bullets OK in factory Glock barrels?

I'm guessing this has been beaten to death in some old thread but after many Glockless years I'm going to buy several Glocks. (G22 and a G21 w G20 conversion)I'm wondering if hard cast, properly lubed bullets (I tend to use Lee tumble lube bullets) are OK to use in Glocks if a few lead-chaser JHPs are at the bottom of each mag and if a Lewis tool is used to keep the bore clean?

I remember reading years ago they were supposed to be a no-no with polygonal rifling.. was that an old wive's tale? I didn't use my lead bullet loads in the G17 I had way back then, because of this. I'm planning on an aftermarket standard rifled barrel for this use but I'm also curious about the stock barrel and lead loads.. thanks in advance
__________________
"Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves. ... Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible instrument of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American" Tench Coxe 1788.
Apocalypse_Now is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2008, 18:39   #2
Steve Koski
Got Insurance?
 
Steve Koski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Montanuh
Posts: 25,289
It all depends on the bullets (and your load and other stuff), but there's no way to know in advance. You have to do some testing to see how quickly the lead builds up. Some combos lead badly in 30 rounds, others can fire hundreds without significant leading.
__________________
People like blood sausage too. People are morons. - Phil Connors
Steve Koski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2008, 20:56   #3
Apocalypse_Now
Molon Labe
 
Apocalypse_Now's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Outer Limits
Posts: 2,772
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Koski View Post
It all depends on the bullets (and your load and other stuff), but there's no way to know in advance. You have to do some testing to see how quickly the lead builds up. Some combos lead badly in 30 rounds, others can fire hundreds without significant leading.
Well my tumble lube hard cast loads hardly lead a barrel at all.. just a few JHPs at the end of the session and a pass or two with the lead remover tool cleans out even revolvers.

I also water-quench the bullets into a half full 5 gallon bucket of cold water as they drop out of the mold
__________________
"Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves. ... Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible instrument of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American" Tench Coxe 1788.
Apocalypse_Now is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2008, 21:02   #4
Jake44460
Senior Member
 
Jake44460's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 836
Quote:
Some combos lead badly in 30 rounds,
Such as....... ?

I'm looking to shoot lead in the not to distant future. Stock barrel.

I'll take any good advice on loads in 9/45 acp
__________________
http://www.salemhuntingclub.com/index.htm
*********************************************
http://www.ohioccw.org/
******************************
- Hope for the Best, Plan for the Worst -
Jake44460 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2008, 21:13   #5
Apocalypse_Now
Molon Labe
 
Apocalypse_Now's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Outer Limits
Posts: 2,772
Improperly lubed lead bullets can badly cake up a bore with an unreal amount of shavings and lead coating.. Many factory bulk lead bullets are in this camp.. I wouldn't buy them unless you get reviews first.

For pistol bullets I use the 6 cavity Lee tumble lube bullet molds. No bullet sizing required. You cast 'em (I quench as listed above) dry them out (I use a large piece of cardboard or several cardboard box tops from printing/typing paper boxes)

Then use a coffee can or similar (1 lb size is perfect) fill it 1/3 full of bullets, add the proper amount of the Lee tumble lube, shake well and pour them out on the cardboard or a piece of plywood. In warm weather or inside they will dry in a few hours. Make sure you have fully coated the entire bullet. The lube will dry semi-hard. I make sure none are resting on their base while they dry.. to ensure they are fully coated there and don't stick to the surface.

Then simply load 'em or tuck away for your next project. I wouldn't say they are true match quality but plenty accurate for self defense training and small game shooting such as rabbits
__________________
"Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves. ... Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible instrument of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American" Tench Coxe 1788.

Last edited by Apocalypse_Now; 02-02-2008 at 21:15..
Apocalypse_Now is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2008, 18:04   #6
CaptJim
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
CaptJim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NC Coast
Posts: 373
I have shot lots of lead in my Glock. BUT, have changed over to the Master Blaster polymer-coated RNFP for my Glock 45. Shoots cleaner, with higher velocity than equivalent lead bullets. A little more expensive, but worth it IMHO.

Jim
__________________
"There is no problem that can not be solved through the proper use of high explosives" G. Alan Foster
CaptJim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2008, 18:05   #7
AlPackin
Senior Member
 
AlPackin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CT
Posts: 705
I believe Master Blaster is out of business
__________________
"A republic, if you can keep it."
panem et circenses
AlPackin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2008, 18:27   #8
sig2009
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,042
KEAD Bullets are hardcast and will not lead up your Glock barrel.
sig2009 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2008, 22:38   #9
Apocalypse_Now
Molon Labe
 
Apocalypse_Now's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Outer Limits
Posts: 2,772
So it seems with the right lube (or purchased bullets) and care to keep the barrel clean of extra lead particles there's no problem.. ?

I long suspected this but never really had to test the theory on polygonal rifling
__________________
"Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves. ... Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible instrument of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American" Tench Coxe 1788.
Apocalypse_Now is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2008, 23:05   #10
MakeMineaP99
Got SIG?
 
MakeMineaP99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: N. IN
Posts: 3,908
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalypse_Now View Post
So it seems with the right lube (or purchased bullets) and care to keep the barrel clean of extra lead particles there's no problem.. ?

I long suspected this but never really had to test the theory on polygonal rifling
There's a whole lot more to the equation than that. Poly bores require lead sized differently than conventionally rifled bores.

A poly bore actually compresses the bullet and rotates it about an axis where as a conventional bore only causes the bullet to rotate around an axis. Due to this, this is the reason for jacketed bullets being recommended in poly bores, from Glock, H&K, et al.

The first step in running lead in any poly bore is to slug the barrel. I bet you'll find that lead should be sized one or two thousands over conventional deminsions for the bore. Most 9mm lead is .356", a Glock needs .358", generally. An undersize bullet will lead to leading, all the time, every time.

Also, hard cast isn't always better. Upon firing, the bullet "expands" from the pressure to seal the bore. In a low pressure round, like .45 ACP, a 11 BHN will expand sufficiently. In 9mm though, something harder, maybe in the 22 BHN range, is needed to seal the bore under the higher pressure. Have an improperly hardened bullet, you will experience leading, since it won't seal the bore and lead to gas cutting.

Don't forget twist and bore profile (hex vs. oct) either. 9mm and .40 are naturally less friendly because of more agressive rifling and hex bore profile, compared to .45 and will require a bit more due diligence.

Lube also plays a part. Lar's Red works well in most pistol applications and most rifle applications. Any good commericial lube should do, ALOX, LLA, Lar's, SPG, et al, or home made lube (Felix).

Last edited by MakeMineaP99; 02-03-2008 at 23:08..
MakeMineaP99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2008, 23:08   #11
Apocalypse_Now
Molon Labe
 
Apocalypse_Now's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Outer Limits
Posts: 2,772
Thank you, that was truly helpful !
__________________
"Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves. ... Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible instrument of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American" Tench Coxe 1788.
Apocalypse_Now is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2008, 23:18   #12
MakeMineaP99
Got SIG?
 
MakeMineaP99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: N. IN
Posts: 3,908
Forgot to address this in the earlier post, those of you who think that a few jacketed or plated bullets will shoot out the lead in a barrel at the end of a shooting session, need to go back to physics class.

When a bullet passes through the barrel, the barrel expands around the bullet, like a snake eating a mouse, as it accelerates through the barrel. Firing a jacketed bullets serves to "iron" the lead into the pores of the steel making it harder to remove.

If you have severe leading, jacketed bullets can cause unsafe pressures and at worst, cause a barrel bulge or burst. Remember, metals and most fluids are incompressible and will cause pressure (force/area) on the barrel walls.

Get a chore boy or Lewis lead remover.
MakeMineaP99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2008, 00:02   #13
Apocalypse_Now
Molon Labe
 
Apocalypse_Now's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Outer Limits
Posts: 2,772
Quote:
Originally Posted by MakeMineaP99 View Post
Forgot to address this in the earlier post, those of you who think that a few jacketed or plated bullets will shoot out the lead in a barrel at the end of a shooting session, need to go back to physics class.

When a bullet passes through the barrel, the barrel expands around the bullet, like a snake eating a mouse, as it accelerates through the barrel. Firing a jacketed bullets serves to "iron" the lead into the pores of the steel making it harder to remove.

If you have severe leading, jacketed bullets can cause unsafe pressures and at worst, cause a barrel bulge or burst. Remember, metals and most fluids are incompressible and will cause pressure (force/area) on the barrel walls.

Get a chore boy or Lewis lead remover.
Re-read my post. I use a few JHPs (Or other jacketed bullets) at the bottom of each mag to blow some of the lead out and keep it at a minimum until the shoot is over. This works excellently in my experience with good, well-lubed lead loads. Yes there is lead left to remove when you clean with a lead remover tool but it's less with the "chaser" rounds added to the mix
__________________
"Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves. ... Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible instrument of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American" Tench Coxe 1788.
Apocalypse_Now is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2008, 01:08   #14
Blitzer
Cool Cat
 
Blitzer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The communist's play ground of OHIO
Posts: 26,617
Send a message via AIM to Blitzer Send a message via Yahoo to Blitzer
Glock says no reloads, your choice.

__________________
It doesn't matter what the Joe on the street thinks, it is who pays the biggest bribes to the electoral college gets elected as President! :crying:
Blitzer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2008, 07:22   #15
sig2009
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,042
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitzer View Post
Glock says no reloads, your choice.

Ya. And my BMW says premium fuel only. Guess what! It also runs on 87 octane with no problem and that after about 10 years. Don't believe everything the manufacturers tell you.
sig2009 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2008, 08:04   #16
AngelDeville
NoHablaMexican
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: ABQ
Posts: 459
I already have the 200grain bullet mould for my future G20, I expect no problems.
AngelDeville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2008, 08:18   #17
Frostback
Senior Member
 
Frostback's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Republik of Kanada
Posts: 181
I have fired thousands of rounds of lead out of my factory barrel G-19 with no problems. I have found that using slower powders also reduces the amount of leading. You may want to experiment with that too.

Frosty
__________________
Most people are like a Slinky. Sort of useless, but fun when you push them down stairs.
Frostback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2008, 10:06   #18
MakeMineaP99
Got SIG?
 
MakeMineaP99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: N. IN
Posts: 3,908
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalypse_Now View Post
Re-read my post. I use a few JHPs (Or other jacketed bullets) at the bottom of each mag to blow some of the lead out and keep it at a minimum until the shoot is over. This works excellently in my experience with good, well-lubed lead loads. Yes there is lead left to remove when you clean with a lead remover tool but it's less with the "chaser" rounds added to the mix

I read your post,

Quote:
if a few lead-chaser JHPs are at the bottom of each mag
This BS and an internet myth. JHPs and other jacketed bullets do not remove lead, they "iron" it into the barrel.

Steel, like all materials, will elastically deform until it reaches its yield point, which will then plastically deform. The steel will "expand"--elastically deform, like a snake eating a mouse, when a bullet passes through the barrel. Obstructions, whether lead, water, sand, grit, etc. will cause an additional force to be applied over an area (pressure). If that pressure becomes greater than the yield strength of the material, meaning that you have reached and exceed the yield point, the barrel will bugle or if stressed to the failure point, burst.

Metals and most fluids (water among them) are incompressible, meaning if they are in a barrel when a force is exerted (bullet being accelerated has force), the force will be exerted on them, meaning they will stress the barrel.

Can you get away with it? Sure, all designs incorporate a factor of safety. Does that make it the smart thing to do? Not really.

Lewis lead remover is good stuff.

Last edited by MakeMineaP99; 02-04-2008 at 10:10..
MakeMineaP99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2008, 19:24   #19
Jake44460
Senior Member
 
Jake44460's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 836
Thanks for the physics lesson!

Nice post.
__________________
http://www.salemhuntingclub.com/index.htm
*********************************************
http://www.ohioccw.org/
******************************
- Hope for the Best, Plan for the Worst -
Jake44460 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2008, 03:08   #20
cz93x62
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Cherry Valley, Planet California
Posts: 1,741
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake44460 View Post
Thanks for the physics lesson!

Nice post.
+1 to that.

I agree with P-99's position on shooting jacketed bullets over any potential lead deposits in any barrel. Before going to jacketed bullets, I clean the lead and lube FASTIDIOUSLY from a barrel. The Chore Boy fibers--wrapped around a played-out bore brush, then soaked in Hoppe's--will get out a SURPRISING amount of plomocaca.

It goes the other way, too--get ALL of the copper jaclet fouling from a barrel before shooting lead through it. Copper deposits will cheerfully strip lead from the bullet as it passes over, and get that bore leaded for you in short order. Hoppe's or CLP will de-copper a bore over time, if you want to hurry the process use Sweet's 7.62 or some other ammonia-based solvent. DO NOT leave ammonia-based solvents in place for more than 10 minutes--swab them out, dilute the residual ammonia with a couple wet patches of Hoppe's or CLP, then dry-patch that stuff out. Repeat as needed.
__________________
Fortuna favorat fortis
cz93x62 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2008, 02:52   #21
rem243
Member
 
rem243's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: GA
Posts: 82
New invention

Quote:
Originally Posted by MakeMineaP99 View Post
I read your post,



This BS and an internet myth. JHPs and other jacketed bullets do not remove lead, they "iron" it into the barrel.

Steel, like all materials, will elastically deform until it reaches its yield point, which will then plastically deform. The steel will "expand"--elastically deform, like a snake eating a mouse, when a bullet passes through the barrel. Obstructions, whether lead, water, sand, grit, etc. will cause an additional force to be applied over an area (pressure). If that pressure becomes greater than the yield strength of the material, meaning that you have reached and exceed the yield point, the barrel will bugle or if stressed to the failure point, burst.

Metals and most fluids (water among them) are incompressible, meaning if they are in a barrel when a force is exerted (bullet being accelerated has force), the force will be exerted on them, meaning they will stress the barrel.

Can you get away with it? Sure, all designs incorporate a factor of safety. Does that make it the smart thing to do? Not really.

Lewis lead remover is good stuff.
Sounds like a new invention. A brass (or Glock barrel safe material) brush bullet. You load up a few for each batch of lead bullets shot. Then at the end of you session you can just shoot a few brushes down the barrel and call it a day. Sounds like it could make a few dollars? Maybe even Billy Mays could sell it on an infomercial and add some Orange scent to it.
__________________
Freedom isn't free. Support our troops or get out!
rem243 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2008, 06:35   #22
cvfl
Beer Whisperer
 
cvfl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: DFW area, Texas
Posts: 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by rem243 View Post
Sounds like a new invention. A brass (or Glock barrel safe material) brush bullet. You load up a few for each batch of lead bullets shot. Then at the end of you session you can just shoot a few brushes down the barrel and call it a day. Sounds like it could make a few dollars? Maybe even Billy Mays could sell it on an infomercial and add some Orange scent to it.
And with that we have found Koski's new test... The ChoreBoy Barrel Brush Bullet.

Concerned about leading at the range? Buy a boresnake and leave it in your range bag with a can of CLP.
__________________
<----like blue press make pull handle much only stop when wench bring grog
cvfl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2008, 06:50   #23
cvfl
Beer Whisperer
 
cvfl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: DFW area, Texas
Posts: 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by sig2009 View Post
KEAD Bullets are hardcast and will not lead up your Glock barrel.
+1 - so much so that I sent George an email to start buying in bulk until my casting is up and running.

Although for clarity - they do lead eventually - but i have done 600 in one session without running a boresnake down with no problems. IMO most of the leading in my 26 is not due to melt but rather the round skipping down the barrel.
But as mentioned in prior posts, every barrel/bullet combination will be different, so go forward with your wits about you and observe what is happening along the way.
__________________
<----like blue press make pull handle much only stop when wench bring grog
cvfl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2008, 08:15   #24
MakeMineaP99
Got SIG?
 
MakeMineaP99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: N. IN
Posts: 3,908
Quote:
Originally Posted by rem243 View Post
Maybe even Billy Mays could sell it on an infomercial and add some Orange scent to it.

That's comedy right there.
MakeMineaP99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2008, 09:30   #25
rem243
Member
 
rem243's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: GA
Posts: 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by MakeMineaP99 View Post
I read your post,



This BS and an internet myth. JHPs and other jacketed bullets do not remove lead, they "iron" it into the barrel.

Steel, like all materials, will elastically deform until it reaches its yield point, which will then plastically deform. The steel will "expand"--elastically deform, like a snake eating a mouse, when a bullet passes through the barrel. Obstructions, whether lead, water, sand, grit, etc. will cause an additional force to be applied over an area (pressure). If that pressure becomes greater than the yield strength of the material, meaning that you have reached and exceed the yield point, the barrel will bugle or if stressed to the failure point, burst.

Metals and most fluids (water among them) are incompressible, meaning if they are in a barrel when a force is exerted (bullet being accelerated has force), the force will be exerted on them, meaning they will stress the barrel.

Can you get away with it? Sure, all designs incorporate a factor of safety. Does that make it the smart thing to do? Not really.

Lewis lead remover is good stuff.
This sounds like a case for Mythbusters! I find it hard to believe that a barrel actually "expands." I always thought that the bullet was deformed or formed to match the rifling. Now, I guess if the bullet is hard enough and the barrel is thin enough, a little expanding might take place. But what about say a 38 with a 3/8" thick barrel? That baby is not going to expand. Or how about a SS bull barrel on a 10/22? That bullet is not expanding the barrel in the least. The heat is coming from the friction, not expansion.

Like I said this is one for the Mythbusters. I'll it when I see it; say a caliper on a barrel expand after firing (although lateral vibration may though this off), or or if it's on a high speed camera you might be able to see.

Sig, is there scientific proof of this or were you just taught this by someone? Just wondering, not meant to be an attack on you!

I hope I am not starting WWIII with my humble opinion.
I still agree that a copper jacketed bullet shot after lead is not going to magically clean the barrel. That is what bore snakes and brushes are for.
__________________
Freedom isn't free. Support our troops or get out!

Last edited by rem243; 02-15-2008 at 09:34..
rem243 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:56.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 696
187 Members
509 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42