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Old 02-18-2008, 21:29   #1
cledford3
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CCF Raceframe: Updated! Initial Impression - PENDING…

I've added another post to the thread about the buffer issue. Look below. The sort of it is that there is a very plausable explanation to the matter and CCF was helpful over the phone.


The short of it is, I've been considering one of these for almost a year - since I first heard about them - I've ended buying this or that and never really making it a priority as I was hemming and hawing and figured I'd get to it at some point - BIG MISTAKE, I REALLY wish I'd bought the frame a long time ago -it would have had A LOT of influence on other decisions I'd made. If you are interested in these things, PULL THE TRIGGER and buy one - I doubt you'll be uphappy. Even if they don't end up working out for sport shooting - THETY ARE JUST PLAIN FUN. The rest of my "mini" review is below.


Took the Raceframe out today for the first run since putting it together. For the time being the gun is:

- SS frame
- All Glock OEM lower parts (save the ones provided by CCF), match version of parts when available (I.e 3.5 disconnector, extended mag latch, extended slide release)
- Glock 22 complete upper – right off a G22 gen3 pistol

Gun ran fine, albeit I only put 50 rounds through it – will likely put about 300 more tomorrow. I was shooting Federal factory 180 FMJ ammo. All I can say is WOW – the thing Rocks! I put 30 rounds down range with the 22 and OEM frame first, just to be able to compare the 2. (30 not included in the 50 put though the CCF)

After owning a 35, 27, 24 and 22 (all .40s) I can say the thing I LEAST like about glocks is the trigger bite – shooting the OEM gun first reminded me of this. After running the 2 mags through the OEM gun I switched over the top end. It couldn’t have been easer – just drop the top end off the OEM pistol, pull the guide rod, put in the “shock-buff” (more on this in a bit..), put back the guide rod and reassemble on the CCF frame. 60 seconds tops, and this was to include a liberal application of gun oil to the CCF frame rails – screw all the “run your glock dry” crap – I oil and oil liberally.

Anyhow, I shot it at 15 yards first, at a 6 inch blaze orange stick-on target with a 1 inch black “shoot and see” paster in the center of it. First shot went directly through the paster – I couldn’thave been happier…

I shot the gun at both 7 and 15 yards only. Groups were only slightly smaller at 7 (telling me it mechanically did not make the gun more accurate), but they were MUCH improved at 15 – which I attribute to the weight and that influence on follow-up shots. Things were just much tighter, the groups BETTER then my G35 with Barsto at same distance.

Noticed the trigger was… different. Not bad, just different. I’ve trained myself to let off just to the Glock trigger resets, which on a stock frame is a very noticeable *CLICK* - not so on the CCF – it is very mellow – I even missed it several times. All in all trigger felt noticeably smoother although I did no polishing to either the trigger components or frame, although I intend to. I’m a little put off by missing the reset (I’m guessing the weight of frame + full mag deadens it) although the smoothing out of the trigger in general is a nice trade off. Time will tell on a final verdict, although I’m guessing I’ll get used to the diminished click and continue to rock the trigger as in the past with the OEM frame.

All in all, I’m VERY, VERY pleases with this initial, although limited outing. Only function issue was a single incidence of the slide not locking back on an empty mag. I then loaded 3 sets of 3 rounds into the same mag and did not have any issue with it locking back again. I then continued to use the same mag for the rest of the outing and had not other issues. This leads me to believe I may have been riding the slide lock a little with my grip… Otherwise, If I could right this minute, I’d buy at least 2-3 more CCF frames. One to build a dedicated 9mm gun, one for a long-slide and one to “tuck away.” Providing that they (CCF) finishes debugging them (locking block issues and shock-buff) these will truly revolutionize sport shooting with Glocks. As far as other uses? Not sure, but I can say the look (the grey just looks killer with the contrasting black slide and hardware), the “feel” (the weight, heft, or whatever you want to call it…) and finally the way it mellows out the .40 cartridge – it is well worth the purchase assuming you’ve got the cash. My gut tells me that sport shooters would be the biggest market for these, however, I would advise ANYONE with the spare cash and the inkling to buy a second Glock just to have fun with, skip the OEM Glock and buy a CCF frame – they are a lot of fun and it’s also a great learning experience about your gun by having to order the parts and assemble it.

On the shock buffs – what a joke. I put 50 on mine today and it looks rode hard and put away wet – there is no way on god’s green earth that the buff will make it past 400-500 rounds. At $8.95 retail they REALLY need to figure this out – the buffs SUCK.

Finally, on the changeable backstrap. I ordered both and tried each – moving back and forth. They stay on with friction and I did not install the CCF provided roll pin to secure either at this point. I’d have to say that with my hand size (on the smaller side) going in I was leaning towards the “1911” insert. It felt more comfortable dry firing at home. To my surprise, I found the grip changes on the CCF (beaver tail, relieved undercut trigger guard, checkering, weight) all helped to make the OEM configured grip the one I preferred by the time I was done – which I would have never guessed going in. It looks like with the CCF I’ll be sticking with the OEM grip config, although I’d take a grip reduction on the OEM *FRAME* any day. My 24 is a gen2 but I get this on all of the OEM frames to some extent – the snappiness of the .40 cartridge just does not allow me to keep the same grip on the gun shot to shot, the darn grip just slips all over the place. This thing (the CCF) was CEMENTED in my hand and moved NO WHERE.

Last and not least, THE F’ING TRIGGER BITE IS GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hope this helps,

-Calvin

Last edited by cledford3; 04-29-2008 at 13:51..
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Old 02-18-2008, 23:52   #2
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Nice Review.

Okay, so I will have to get one. CCF Raceframe and the LWD Stainless Upper... (slobber, drool) Stainless on Stainless... would be perfect. Too bad it would end up in USPSA OPEN Class...

how was the grippy-ness of the frame? I use skateboard tape or 3M tape as it really lends a positive grip... you have an opinion on this?

Lastly - Review without PICS??? Ya just haven't finished the review with out the pics...

Thanks again for the review... and now I need one... Sheesh....(grin)
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Old 02-19-2008, 21:05   #3
cledford3
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Update - not as much good to say today :(

Now that weather is warming and I've increased spring weigh buffers lasting much longer - problem solved in my book. Thumbs up to CCF.

-Calvin

Last edited by cledford3; 04-29-2008 at 13:52..
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Old 02-19-2008, 22:09   #4
Steve Koski
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So toss the buff and shoot the hell out of the frame and see if anything happens.

1911's and other guns have been running steel on steel for a long time.
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Old 02-19-2008, 22:21   #5
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Sorry to hear about the challenge. I know the Buffer Technology product and they are designed for the flexy polymer Glock frame. They are softer than the 1911 style shock buff.

Just a thought, maybe Buffer Tec. offers a harder urethane product for some of the other weapons it builds buffers for. If so, they might be willing to custom make a harder buffer for you.

Secondarily, you could mold your own. Urethane is available for home hobby use. You would probably have to fool around with the mix to get the correct durometer hardness.

Probably not what you wanted to mess with, but, we learn and then we do. That is what makes things better.
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Old 02-19-2008, 22:26   #6
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I am with Steve.... if it clearly states "warranty void" to run with out a buffer I would probably push to get my money back... and had I known that it REQUIRED a shock buffer, I would not purchase it. No Way.

but other than that, with no warranty limitations I would certainly shoot without it! Like Steve says, we been shooting 1911's for years without buffers and they work for decades! there isn't even a link pin to bust, so what is not to like?

Use shock buffs in my competition 1911's, but I get 10 buffers for $5 and have yet to change one out in ... well bout 5 years. Several thousand rounds on each buffer and they look fine.

Sure is a stinker cledford3 - I feel for ya. I have had my share of uncurable Sow's Ears....

Last edited by Pierre!; 02-19-2008 at 22:28..
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Old 02-19-2008, 23:02   #7
cledford3
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Now that weather is warming and I've increased spring weigh buffers lasting much longer - problem solved in my book. Thumbs up to CCF.

-Calvin

Last edited by cledford3; 04-29-2008 at 13:53..
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Old 02-20-2008, 09:49   #8
cledford3
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Now that weather is warming and I've increased spring weigh buffers lasting much longer - problem solved in my book. Thumbs up to CCF.

-Calvin

Last edited by cledford3; 04-29-2008 at 13:53..
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Old 02-20-2008, 14:05   #9
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In the software business they call this BETA testing a product that is NOT READY for a production environment. This is expressed up front by all credible software houses (Microsoft for example).

From your reports, which are very comprehensive, you are BETA Testing their products. If that was your intention from the beginning, well, there you go.

If that was not your intention, then I believe your window to get out of this is here and now.

They basically admitted flawed testing processes that are dependent on the buffer for function. The buffer system is, as we know, an unreasonable solution to the function of a $400 "upgrade" that is NOT a requirement to have any Glock function flawlessly. I would be quite *angry* finding this out after the fact as you have.

You are definitely a better man than I, and I will be checking your progress. Hopefully they will treat you right!

I appreciate you posting your results. It matters to many of us who are still thinking that the CCF Raceframes are Da Bomb. I will keep my $$$ in my pocket for now.

Good Luck!!!
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Old 02-20-2008, 14:18   #10
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I know this solution won't be for everyone, but I'm having good luck SO FAR with an EFK Fire Dragon dual stage recoil spring with my CCF frame. I'm shooting WWB 165gr in competition with this setup. On my first match with the CCF I used the stock spring and CCF supplied shock buff and it got bashed up pretty good. On my second match, I used the EFK spring with the shock buff still in place and if ran fine. The buff didn't show any additional wear. I shot over 100 rounds per match.
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Old 02-20-2008, 14:30   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cledford3 View Post
3. Send the gun to a gunsmith and have the slide stop milled back a bit to allow the slide to fully travel without smacking into the frame. (What stops the slide then) I don’t like this as it is going to require much more $$$. I’m guessing $150 to $200 more when you figure in overnight shipping both ways (I’m assuming the frames have to shipped just like guns, over night carrier only) plus at least $50 to $100 for the work. I could deal with the this *IF* it resolves the issue AND allows one to dump the buff altogether. The big issue here is that you now have around $570 invested (assuming frame cost, shipping, transfer fees, lower parts+shipping, plus shipping and labor for milling) to get the frame up and running. That’s a lot of cheese as my dad would say…


All in all, I was treated well on the phone and he took a lot of time to explain the issue to me. I can’t say I’m crazy about the situation or totally impressed with the customer shouldering the cost of fixing the issue – but I’m also assuming this to be the case and who knows how they’ll actually handle it. The gentleman was very cool to send me a couple buffs free of charge.

-Calvin
They should do this option for you FREE, then make sure that the shockbuffs take the final hit and insure that this combination works for A LOT of rounds. You should not go out of pocket on any of it.
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Old 02-20-2008, 19:55   #12
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I'm not too surprised to see this shakeout occur. I might get one yet, but there's no burning rush.
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Old 02-20-2008, 20:59   #13
Steve Koski
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I say find out what they're going to machine off, and just take it off yourself with a file/dremel tool. You can do it!
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Old 02-23-2008, 10:34   #14
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This situation makes me mad and its not even my gun. I would not even be partially ok with any of the three options they gave. Can you immagine the condition of this frame after 5,000 rounds? I would be demanding my money back. I think we should all send a tasteful email to CCF. I am sorry this is happening to you.

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Old 02-23-2008, 21:28   #15
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So far my CCF "G34" works fine with stock G34 upper and even with an AA .22 conversion. Hoping I can get it to work with aftermarket G34 slide and barrels.

Craig in Tennessee
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Old 02-23-2008, 21:41   #16
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I believe only issues are with .40, G34 upper ran nicely. Building a G17 open, so far so good.
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Old 02-23-2008, 23:01   #17
cledford3
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Now that weather is warming and I've increased spring weigh buffers lasting much longer - problem solved in my book. Thumbs up to CCF.

-Calvin

Last edited by cledford3; 04-29-2008 at 13:53..
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Old 02-23-2008, 23:13   #18
Steve Koski
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So what does the gunsmith take off?
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Old 02-23-2008, 23:31   #19
cledford3
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Now that weather is warming and I've increased spring weigh buffers lasting much longer - problem solved in my book. Thumbs up to CCF.

-Calvin

Last edited by cledford3; 04-29-2008 at 13:54..
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Old 02-24-2008, 14:36   #20
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Thanks for the reports Calvin.

Again, you are a better man than I. I would have already returned the receiver and requested either my $$$ back, or a time line for the remediation of the previously undisclosed design flaw.

I build custom computers, and if they don't work right, I loose money. Period. It's made right or it's never delivered and you get your money back. Period. We are talking quite a bit more money.... and i guess that is my point.

It's a $350 receiver! Stop selling it till you get it right, or it's $275 for the 9mm version of the pistol that is dependent on a $9 consumable part to run...

I'm sorry but I really don't think that AFTER the purchase is the time that you should have heard that they were having issues with different bullet weights. For some reason, it just doesn't seem fair... or did I get that part wrong Calvin?

Glad you have been open with your ordeal. They rate a "Not Ready for Production" sticker from me.

$700 to $800 for a metal framed Glock that depends on a $9 part to run just isn't going to rate as a "must have" pistol for quite a few of us. We buy designs that run, or those designs generally .... uhm... go away.

I predict a rough evolution for CCF RaceFrames. After reading through their FAQ it is VERY clear that these frames will not be suitable to a large number of us Glock owners. They seem to have "improved" on the Glock frame design. Unfortunately, they have improved the frame to the point that makes all of my current accessories incompatible or in need of gun smithing to be used...

Not the best display of Accurate Thinking if you ask me... Perhaps they will decide that they would rather SELL Frames and make some changes to their product design...

Hope that they treat you fair in the long run!

Last edited by Pierre!; 02-24-2008 at 14:41..
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