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Old 07-18-2002, 15:45   #21
paynter2
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saigonsmuggler:

"Actually I might make an argument that for deer size animals, .223 is very effective. When using HPs or softpoints, the 55 to 62-grain bullet usually would not exit the deer, thus dumping all of its energy into the target.

You would most likely have exit wounds if you use .308, .30-06 on deers in broadside shots."


That's why I went to a 6mm REM. My 30-06 bullits were exiting the beast.
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Old 07-18-2002, 15:55   #22
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i have killed about 6 white tails, with one shot. i take out the shoulder, and ususally get the heart and lungs with it, with 30.06 165 gr ballistic tips. ive shot 2 others 1 that ran 10 yards, and another that ran about 50.

walterga, i want to go hunting over by you, 275 # whitetails ?
thats a whola lotta deer! and a whole lotta jerky!
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Old 07-18-2002, 16:41   #23
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"walterga, i want to go hunting over by you, 275 # whitetails ?"

I don't hunt deer, but we do have some pretty large deer hereabouts. Lots of row crops and good cover for deer. Killing a deer doesn't require a great deal of skill, at the ranges at which most deer are killed. If deer hunting were very difficult, those 8-yr-old girls, shooting SKS's couldn't kill them so easily.

A .223 has much more energy than many handgun rounds that people use for deer hunting.

I do believe that 19 non-running deer, shot from a stand is doable. Also believe that the same results would have been had with a good .243.
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Old 07-19-2002, 14:17   #24
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I think 19 downed deer from a stand is doable too. I think weather a deer goes down right away or not depends on shot placement - more than calibre.

Personally, given a choice, I don't shoot for the shoulder - I don't like to 'blow up' the animal like that. I'll shoot right behind the elbow - right in the lungs. No meat damage and the animal will go down 8 out of 10 times. The other 2 times it may run a few yards.

yah - blowing up the shoulder will put them down. But, it's not the .270, 308, or 30-06 thats doing it - it's bullit energy hitting all that bone mass and the animal forced to absorb all that energy
that counts.
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Old 07-20-2002, 18:10   #25
BKD in Texas
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IPSC-1. I'm calling BS on this.

In what exact part of their anatomy did you shoot these 19 deer? Unless they were all neck or head shots, I simply don't believe you.

I've killed 35 to 40 deer myself and seen a few more shot by others. Unless you get a CNS hit, a deer shot even through the heart or both lungs, is going to run a bit, much more often than not. Occasionally they will drop in their tracks with a heart/lung hit, but only occasionally. If you shoot 19 deer in the heart/lung area in a row, I would bet my next monthly paycheck over 50% of them would run some distance. Probably more like 75% would. They won't go far with a good hit, but they will run...

So, care to clarify your shot placement?

Take Care,
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Old 07-21-2002, 07:41   #26
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Originally posted by BKD in Texas
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So, care to clarify your shot placement?
BKD,
I'd be happy to. While I'm at it I'll claify on the rifle and ammo combination as well as the distance and angle.

I use a Ruger M77 30-06, w/Federal Premium 165Gr soft points.
Hunting, Fishing & Camping

My tree stand is 20 ft above the ground. Most shots are
taken quite close (under 60 yds) as the stand overlooks an apple orchard and the trails enter the orchard close to my stand.
Because the stand is elevated, most shots hit high and exit low. This is the area I aim for: (I usually hit higer up on the shoulder do to the angle) :
Hunting, Fishing & Camping
Keep in mind that I am elevated, and my shots usually land a bit high and exit a bit low (yes, they always exit the animal). I'm not sure if this has anything to do with one shot drops, but it is a commonality between all 19 deer harvested so I'll mention it.
Also keep in mind that I have lots of time to aim, and I have NEVER
taken a shot that I was unsure of (ie thru brush) although I've heard
this is common practice with some hunters.
Sir, call BS and bet your paycheck if you must. I stand firm on
what has happend in the woods. I have no witness other than my eyes and the trees in the woods. If I did, I'd be looking for your check in the mail.;c Afterall...The proof is in the freezer.

Take care,
IPSC-1
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Old 07-21-2002, 13:24   #27
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IPSC-1,

I was not trying to question your honesty, only your description of how you were shooting. On the shot placement you illustrate, I stand by my words. Nineteen deer in a row WOULD NOT drop in their tracks on that placement... I would still bet a paycheck on it, if we could set it up somehow... I have a video camera and shoot about 4 deer a season, with the opportunity to film a few more. Do you? :>)

However you mention your shots going high and exiting low, indicating
perhaps you are shooting virtually straight down at the deer. Are you perhaps catching the SPINE then(SPINE=CNS hit)? If so, I'll buy it. I've anchored three deer in their tracks with handguns, on these upper shoulder SPINE shots. (e.g. I was aiming at the shoulder and the shot went a little high and hit the spine.) The deer were immobilized.

But again, on more deer than not - a shot through the heart/lung area will result in a run some of some distance before piling up. Usually less than 100 yards, but sometimes more.

I have also noticed this "run" behavior is more prevalent on deer that are shot with "over-bulleted", heavy, large calibers. By that I mean people shooting whitetail with 180 gr. -220 gr. .30 cal bullets designed for larger game. These bullets (particulary if no or little bone is hit) tend to zip through with little or no expansion, and the deer does the typical 100 -200 yard dash before bleeding out.

It is just as possible to use "too much" gun, as too little on whitetails, and either will produce similar results. Both extremes with work with exact shot placement however.

I learn more about calibers and shot placement every season, and become a better hunter because of it. But, there are a lot of old wives tales out there that are causing people misery I believe.

Take Care,
BKD
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Old 07-21-2002, 14:05   #28
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BKD- Not a flame, but I think you might lose that bet. I've shot many more than 19 whitetail in the last 20yrs with basically the same bullet placement (perhaps a couple inches to the right) from a similar position (under 150yds, from elevated stands on power line ROW) with calibers ranging from .257 Roberts to 30-06.

Never have I had a deer move more than 10 feet after the shot and most just fell where they stood. The shots didn't always exit the animal, but that shot placement wrecked the shoulder, heart and lungs everytime. I've never had a CNS hit on a deer.

Just an observation...
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Old 07-21-2002, 16:06   #29
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Hello ButchC,

No I still think I would win the bet. Did you just say you usually destroyed the front shoulders? OK, they may not go far with both front shoulders destroyed (although they might surprise you!) However, if you have shot over 19 deer with the shot placement shown on the illustration - and NEVER had one go over ten feet, you are EXTREMELY lucky! And I am extremely skeptical.

The illustration clearly indicates a BEHIND the shoulder heart/lung shot (look at it again). This is pretty typical shot placement for most hunters and virtually REQUIRED shot placement for
bow hunters and careful handgun hunters. Again, I stand by my statement. A shot into the heart lung area will usually NOT drop a deer in it's tracks...

BTW, don't you get tired of losing all that shoulder meat every year? I'm not flaming, I'm sincerely asking... A major caliber through both front shoulders will usually bring them down quick, but you sure lose a lot of meat that way...

I have no axe to grind here, guys, other than I don't want less experienced hunters to get the impression they did something wrong if they make a good heart/lung shot and the deer runs a bit before expiring. These newer guys should be told to mark carefully the spot where the deer is BEFORE they shoot, and expect to have to trail it a bit more often than not.

For the record, the last six deer I killed ALL dropped in their tracks. They were shot from an elevated blind at distances from 90 to 125 yards, with a scoped 30-06. And all were shot in the high neck region or behind the ear (CNS). I don't consider this real hunting however - I was just SHOOTING deer to kill my required quota of does and spikes on the lease I hunt, and to get sausage meat. When I HUNT, it's with a handgun. :>)

I'll quit stirring the pot now. I've already posted more that I usually do in a year! :>) The experienced hunters know the ins and outs anyway. I just worry about the new guys.

Take care and best of luck to both of you this season.

BKD
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Old 07-22-2002, 08:16   #30
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We didn't worry about the loss of meat. With the long season, high limits, and over abundance of deer in SC, the freezer fills up fast. We mainly killed deer to keep them out of our soybean fields. Not hunting, just economics.
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Old 08-02-2002, 10:34   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by IPSC-1
Quote:
OK, I'm an avid deer hunter and I respect these animals immensely. I grew up hunting deer in Northern Maine (where they are known for being large and very resilient.)
Im not trying to cause trouble, but if you "respect" the deer so much, why are you shooting high powered rifles at it? I hunt also, but it cracks me up when I hear hunters talking about how they respect the animals they shoot. I do always try to make a quick, clean kill though. Anyways.

;Q

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Old 08-02-2002, 11:44   #32
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Out of respect for the animal, I use the correct caliber/bullet type to ensure a clean kill. Apparently I didn't make myself clear in earlier posts.
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Old 08-02-2002, 13:35   #33
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I know what youre saying, and I agree with you 100%. It just sounds funny.
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Old 08-05-2002, 15:08   #34
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Get upset at me if you would like but i would like to share experiences that will give you more info. to decide from. i am not lying because people who make up stories to sound cool on an anonymous website or to prove a point without knowledge are sad and mislead others. i have cleanly killed the only two deer i have shot with a 10/22 with one shot each. i don't hunt that way but in my younger absolutley dumber days i shot a 120-150 lb. deer at about fifty yards with a .22lr into the heart. the deer went no more than 10 yards before dropping. the other was in the head and it died where it stood. in ohio shotguns are the only long gun allowed during gun season (i had no muzzleloaders) and i have wounded and uncleanly killed four deer with a 12 gauge 3" slug and cleanly killed two. i can put 5 out of 5 rounds into a deers vitals at 200 yards with an ar-15 from the standing pos. where as i gut shot a deer at 80 with the 12 gauge and never recovered it and lung shots caused running anywhere from 25 to 200 yards from impact. my point is that shooting deer with a .22 lr is absolutley irresponsible and i regret doing it, but placing well aimed shot from a .223 is hunting if you can shoot it accurately. if slugs aren't violating the deer's rights then a .223 shouldn't be.
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Old 08-09-2002, 09:58   #35
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BKD in Texas
I disagree with you here on it having to be a CNS shot to drop a deer. Shot my Mulely doe just behind the shoulder took out the upper portion of the lungs only -she drop as if struck by lightening didn't even twitch. I don't consider the .223 a big game cartridge- sure it will kill deer so will a.22LR . It's a question of ethics! As a "HUNTER" not a killer of Animals it's your responsibility to end the deers life as quickly and humanly as possible-period! I'm also looking at where most of these posters are from that are shooting deer with the .223 and I'm pretty sure that caliber is not legal to shoot deer with!! ;g

PS I've also seen deer shot with slugs out of a 12GA that left a hole you could put your arm through and that deer ran 400 yards or better through thick brush before it died. It was hit just left of the spine from above. The wound channel went straight down through the chest no-major organs hit-just a big nasty hole!! I think it died from shock becuase there was very little blood trail. This was in VA and if we hadn't of had tracking dogs I don'tthink we would of ever found the deer.
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Old 08-09-2002, 13:28   #36
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I fail to see why the .223 on deer is such a hotly debated and emotional topic.

Fact. It is a bit of under-gun for deer hunting.
Fact. It still can be an effective gun for deer hunting.

Nothing magical happens when we down size from a .30-06 to a .243 to a .223. It is just a continuum of power. The .223 is just a bit on the light side, that doesn't mean it won't work. Personally, I think a 165 grain soft point .30-06 is the perfect round for deer. If we could hypothetically shoot a thousand deer with each type of round available, and with similar accuracy, we are going to see a certain percentage of drop on the spots, and a certain percentage of run and drops, and a certain percentage of run off and not drops until the next day. I think the .30-06 will have a higher percentage of drop on the spots than a .223, but that does not mean the .223 will not be effective.

Also, don't forget to factor in that a calm and relaxed deer is much more likely to drop on the spot than one that is all hyped up on adrenaline. 19 heart/lung shots from a tree stand on relaxed and unknowing deer might well result in a 19 drop on the spots. 19 heart/lung shots at hyped up deer, however, will more likely result in half of them being run and drops.

My 2 cents
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Old 08-09-2002, 14:08   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gunnut 45/454
I'm also looking at where most of these posters are from that are shooting deer with the .223 and I'm pretty sure that caliber is not legal to shoot deer with!! ;g
.223 is legal in NY. AR-15 is legal, too, as long as you only have a 5-shot magazine.

Not my choice for deer hunting, but it is legal. Also ethical, if you know what you are doing
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