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Old 02-21-2015, 09:34   #1
Texas solo
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sizing die question..confused

I'm getting confused by contradicting info I've read about 9mm sizing issues. I've yet to order my dies for the 9mm as I'm still researching the matter. FWIW, I am not a rookie reloader, just new to the 9mm scene.

I've just installed a LWD barrel and comp on my G17. I have it running great with factory ammo (for now). I read multiple complaints about the LWD barrel having a tight chamber, so much so that even LWD offers a service to open it up a bit. The issue always seem to be with reloads.

The common answer to the issue is a Lee FCD....or....the Lee "U" die, which is "undersized". Here's where I'm confused:

The "U" die reports always refer to the crimp being tighter, especially on thin walled brass. I see nothing about the BASE of the case being any smaller than normal. This is the area I'm concerned about. All LWD barrel owners who reported an issue said that the case would drop into the barrel only so far, not all the way. The issue has been at the BASE of the case, not the neck.

Then there's the FCD. Again, the "C" stands for CRIMP, not a smaller BASE dimension.

I guess what I'm asking is if either of these two dies will resize the case all the way down, eliminating the "glock" bulge?

I figure on ordering the 4 die set, which includes the FCD, and only using the #3 die as a seater. Will this FCD size the all the way down, or do I need the "U" die as well?

Any explanation of the difference between the "U" die and the FCD is greatly appreciated.
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Old 02-21-2015, 09:59   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas solo View Post

I've just installed a LWD barrel and comp on my G17. I have it running great with factory ammo (for now). I read multiple complaints about the LWD barrel having a tight chamber, so much so that even LWD offers a service to open it up a bit. The issue always seem to be with reloads.
If you knew of the tight chamber, why buy the barrel? The KKM barrel has no such problem.

Of course, the other question is why replace the factory barrel? It works fine with reloads including 'lead' reloads. You just need to keep track of any potential leading and it is unlikely to ever be a problem with hardcast bullets.

The user manual says not to use anything other than jacketed ammo! Well, it also says to use only FACTORY jacketed ammo. Yet here we are...

The LWD barrel has a problem only with PLATED or LEAD bullets, not jacketed bullets. Those bullets are, by definition, 0.001" larger in diameter. The problem with seating the reloads in the chamber is more likely to be at the casemouth than at the base.

Coat a loaded round with either a Sharpie or DyeChem, drop it in the chamber, spin it around and see where it rubs.

Quote:

The common answer to the issue is a Lee FCD....or....the Lee "U" die, which is "undersized". Here's where I'm confused:

The "U" die reports always refer to the crimp being tighter, especially on thin walled brass. I see nothing about the BASE of the case being any smaller than normal. This is the area I'm concerned about. All LWD barrel owners who reported an issue said that the case would drop into the barrel only so far, not all the way. The issue has been at the BASE of the case, not the neck.

Then there's the FCD. Again, the "C" stands for CRIMP, not a smaller BASE dimension.

I guess what I'm asking is if either of these two dies will resize the case all the way down, eliminating the "glock" bulge?
The considered wisdom around here is that the standard Lee sizing die sizes a little closer to the base than other dies. It is sufficient to properly resize the case. I don't know that it is necessary. Resize a case, don't seat a bullet, and drop it in the chamber. Does it slide in easily and rattle around a bit? It should. Buy a case gauge if you don't have one. They are handy. The other side of the story is that it isn't YOUR chamber. Some folks want to chamber test every round.

The FCD is a crimp die that has a sizing ring. It will size the reloaded round should it be too large. Unfortunately, this may resize the area where the bullet is seated and swage the lead or plated bullet enough to release the neck tension. There is no problem the FCD can solve and it can create one that was never there in the first place.
Quote:

I figure on ordering the 4 die set, which includes the FCD, and only using the #3 die as a seater. Will this FCD size the all the way down, or do I need the "U" die as well?

Any explanation of the difference between the "U" die and the FCD is greatly appreciated.
I don't know anything about a "U" die. You'll have to wait for somebody else to post. Apparently it is 0.002"-0.003" smaller in diameter. This will tend to work the brass but if you want to try it, post a report of your results. Glock chambers are so loose that a "U" die isn't remotely necessary. I'm not sure about the LWD.

I would recommend buying the 3 die set (no FCD) and then buying a Lee Taper Crimp Die separately ($13). This will allow the bullet to be seated without simultaneously crimping and make it a lot easier to adjust the taper crimp to JUST close up the case mouth. The case mouth should NOT dent the bullet - particularly for plated bullets.

ETA: Every manufacturer of carbide dies will tell you that you don't need to lube the brass. It true! But it's wrong...

If you lube the brass with Hornady One Shot, resizing will be easier on the brass, the press and the operator. More important, there will be less friction in the sizing die trying to push the walls down toward the base. Exactly what you don't want!

You don't have to remove the lube after loading. Just shoot 'em up!

Richard
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Old 02-21-2015, 11:45   #3
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If you knew of the tight chamber, why buy the barrel? The KKM barrel has no such problem.
The KKM barrel was just too expensive.

Of course, the other question is why replace the factory barrel? It works fine with reloads including 'lead' reloads.
It's rather difficult to screw a compensator onto the factory barrel

The problem with seating the reloads in the chamber is more likely to be at the casemouth than at the base.
As I posted, this is contrary to what LWD barrel owners have reported:
All LWD barrel owners who reported an issue said that the case would drop into the barrel only so far, not all the way. The issue has been at the BASE of the case, not the neck.

The considered wisdom around here is that the standard Lee sizing die sizes a little closer to the base than other dies. It is sufficient to properly resize the case.
This is what I needed to know

The FCD is a crimp die that has a sizing ring. It will size the reloaded round should it be too large. Unfortunately, this may resize the area where the bullet is seated and swage the lead or plated bullet enough to release the neck tension. There is no problem the FCD can solve and it can create one that was never there in the first place.
This is helpful and the type of info I was looking for. Thank you.

Glock chambers are so loose that a "U" die isn't remotely necessary.
I knew that, we're talking about a LWD chamber

I'm not sure about the LWD.

Thus my post

I would recommend buying the 3 die set (no FCD) and then buying a Lee Taper Crimp Die separately ($13). This will allow the bullet to be seated without simultaneously crimping and make it a lot easier to adjust the taper crimp to JUST close up the case mouth. The case mouth should NOT dent the bullet - particularly for plated bullets.
This sounds like a plan, if the standard die sizes far enough down to make the LWD chamber happy.

Every manufacturer of carbide dies will tell you that you don't need to lube the brass. It true! But it's wrong...

Agreed, I learned this when using my first carbide expander ball in .223. I lube every 4th or 5th case
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Old 02-21-2015, 12:21   #4
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When you talk about user experiences with chambering in a LWD barrel, you need to consider that 9mm is a tapered cartridge. The fact that a round gets tight as it is nearly all the way in contributes nothing to the discussion of where along the cartridge it is too large.

Consider that nobody has problems with jacketed bullets in a LWD 9mm barrel and add the fact that lead or plated bullets are 0.001" larger in diameter and you just can't get to a problem with the diameter at the base.

Thus the comment to drop a sized case, only, into the chamber. First determine if the sizing die is working, then worry about the diameter at the case mouth. Then have the chamber reamed properly.

I prefer a case gauge rather than an actual chamber because, in my view, if a round fits a case gauge, it will (or should) fit any chamber on the planet. I might need to revise my view when LWD barrels come into the discussion but I haven't had to face that problem. I just don't know much about the dimensions of the LWD chambers. I bought the KKM variant but have since reverted to the factory barrel. My lead reloads just aren't a problem in .45 ACP using ordinary Dillon dies.

When I case gauge lead reloads, the cartridge is often not loose in the gauge. It fits, but barely. In the .45 ACP world, there is 0.001" clearance between a max cartridge diameter and a min chamber diameter. That gets eaten up to some extent by the bullet being 0.001" larger in diameter. It's the same in the 9mm world:

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...Luger%20+P.pdf

Calipers and micrometers come into play at some point.

Until you send your barrel and a few unprimed reloads back to LWD, I doubt that you will get a satisfactory solution. Assuming you are using lead or plated bullets. If you are having a problem with jacketed bullets, that might be a surprise. There is an EPIC thread re: LWD barrels; the rants went on for VOLUMES and, if the problem was solved, it was solved by having the chamber opened up.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show...barrel+chamber

I don't use Hornady One Shot for .223. I use Dillon lube and tumble the rounds after reloading. HOS just didn't seem adequate and I stuck a couple of cases.

Richard
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Old 02-21-2015, 12:22   #5
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Just buy the following

Lee Deluxe 3 die set for 9mm
Lee taper crimp die for 9mm

Avoid the fcd and start with that. You will be off to a great start. Trust me. Ignore all the bulge and other internet hype. The above is going to work absolutely fine if you set it up right.
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Old 02-21-2015, 12:27   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel View Post
Just buy the following

Lee Deluxe 3 die set for 9mm
Lee taper crimp die for 9mm

Avoid the fcd and start with that. You will be off to a great start. Trust me. Ignore all the bulge and other internet hype. The above is going to work absolutely fine if you set it up right.
Well, sure, give the short answer!
And add Hornady One Shot...

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Old 02-21-2015, 12:36   #7
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FWIW, my "problem" with the LWD barrel is not so much the diameter of my loaded rounds but the "cartridge overall length," or COL/COAL.

I knew when I ordered the LW barrels they would be tight, or have a short throat. So when I started loading 45 Super and 9mm I made up dummy rounds (with bullet only; no powder or primer) and used their barrels (out of the guns) as go/no-go gauges. If the round didn't drop right in, I adjusted my seating die until they did drop in without any hangups.

Richard mentioned using a sharpie to blacken the bullet. I do this, too. If the dummy round comes out of your barrel scuffed up by the rifling of the barrel, you know it's loaded too long. Adjust accordingly.

Tip: When you're making up the loaded round don't apply a full crimp; just enough to take the bell out of the case but loose enough for you to adjust the COL shorter if need be. After you have a good dummy round loaded you can adjust your crimp accordingly.
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Old 02-21-2015, 15:18   #8
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I have had a LW bbl for a 34 for five years. I have a standard set of 9mm Lee dies and have had only two FTC that I can remember. There is no doubt that in those cases, it was the fault of a lead bullet that was not sized as well. The case will never be an issue.

That said, I had a Storm Lake bbl for a G21 and set it back with a request to ream it .001. It was on the tight side of SAAMI and after they modified, it never missed a beat. I could have sized the lead to .451 but sending it back was easier for this lazy loader.
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Old 02-21-2015, 15:21   #9
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Thanks gents.
Richard, I'm going with your recommendation...3 die set + taper crimp die. If something is askew after that, I'll deal with it then.
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Old 02-21-2015, 15:26   #10
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I don't know what the other barrels cost but the LW barrels can usually be
got for 100.

I got reamers to extend the throats and open up the chambers for over sized
cast boolits.

The plated bullets that I have were under sized and I swaged them bigger and
to put a nice meplat on them.

The FDC die comes up a lot around here, I like them for some things.

If you want a longer oal it's no problem to ream it, when I do it I like a loaded rd
to go off of.

In the last two weeks I reamed six barrels to shoot big fat cast boolits, things seem
to be working, was shooting 163gr rnfp in both the 9mm and 357sig, both are six
inches and for the g20, want to take advantage of the long magazine.

My g19 and g27 mags will go a oal of 1.155 with most boolits.
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Old 02-21-2015, 15:36   #11
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Quote:
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Thanks gents.
Richard, I'm going with your recommendation...3 die set + taper crimp die. If something is askew after that, I'll deal with it then.
This topic comes up fairly often. It would really be nice to find out whether the suggestions actually work for other people.

Please post about your results. The feedback will be helpful.

Don't forget the case gauge!

Richard
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Old 02-21-2015, 16:17   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel View Post
Just buy the following

Lee Deluxe 3 die set for 9mm
Lee taper crimp die for 9mm

Avoid the fcd and start with that. You will be off to a great start. Trust me. Ignore all the bulge and other internet hype. The above is going to work absolutely fine if you set it up right.
I agree.


I have a U die (U = undersized) for .380. Reason for that is I was getting poor neck tension with jacketed bullets with the standard Lee .380 sizer. Sent it back to Lee which of corse said it was "within spec". (SOP excuse with Lee) So I bought th eU die. I use the U die for jacketed and the standard die for cast. Do not go to a u die unless you have a problem similier to what I had.
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Old 02-21-2015, 16:39   #13
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I agree.


I have a U die (U = undersized) for .380. Reason for that is I was getting poor neck tension with jacketed bullets with the standard Lee .380 sizer. Sent it back to Lee which of corse said it was "within spec". (SOP excuse with Lee) So I bought th eU die. I use the U die for jacketed and the standard die for cast. Do not go to a u die unless you have a problem similier to what I had.
Don't know what's up with the 380acp but it's not unique to you it seems. But 9mm is not like that so he is good to go with the standard set.

Either way you don't need or even want to over work the brass by using u die. Not unless it's needed like you discovered.
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Old 02-21-2015, 18:26   #14
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I'm reloading 9mm Xtreme RN 115gr @ 1.15 OAL on a LCD with the Lee 4 die set. I only crimp enough to remove the bell. I have LWD barrels for both my 19 and 26. I,ve used both of the barrels (OEM and LWD) and a case gauge to check rounds and haven't had and feed issues so far
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Old 02-21-2015, 19:12   #15
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I'm reloading 9mm Xtreme RN 115gr @ 1.15 OAL on a LCD with the Lee 4 die set. I only crimp enough to remove the bell. I have LWD barrels for both my 19 and 26. I,ve used both of the barrels (OEM and LWD) and a case gauge to check rounds and haven't had and feed issues so far
Yes, but Xtreme plated bullets are 0.355" versus the more problematic (for LWD barrels) 0.356" lead or Berry's 0.356" plated bullets. The Xtreme is sized the same as a jacketed bullet; a very nice bullet!

The PowerBond 9mm is also 0.355". Both the PowerBond and Xtreme have a much heavier plating than the Berry's hence they are sized the same as jacketed.

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Old 02-21-2015, 20:47   #16
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This topic comes up fairly often. It would really be nice to find out whether the suggestions actually work for other people.

Please post about your results. The feedback will be helpful.

Don't forget the case gauge!

Richard
Loaded well over 100k rounds doing it like that, I would say it works fine.
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Old 02-22-2015, 10:25   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F106 Fan View Post
Yes, but Xtreme plated bullets are 0.355" versus the more problematic (for LWD barrels) 0.356" lead or Berry's 0.356" plated bullets. The Xtreme is sized the same as a jacketed bullet; a very nice bullet!

The PowerBond 9mm is also 0.355". Both the PowerBond and Xtreme have a much heavier plating than the Berry's hence they are sized the same as jacketed.

Richard
This ^^^^^^^^^ is good stuff, valuable info for me.
I also see that Rainier is .355".
Any advantage to either the Xtreme or the Rainier?
Cost is about the same, midway has the Rainier.
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Old 02-22-2015, 10:55   #18
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This ^^^^^^^^^ is good stuff, valuable info for me.
I also see that Rainier is .355".
Any advantage to either the Xtreme or the Rainier?
Cost is about the same, midway has the Rainier.
It would seem to me that picking a 0.355" bullet would be the best thing to do given a LWD barrel.

I would buy any of the 0.355" plated bullets and call it a day. They are fine for range ammo and the base of the bullet is covered so there is no exposed lead.

Richard
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Old 02-22-2015, 10:58   #19
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Extreme have a thicker copper coating. I would pick those if cost is similar.
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Old 02-22-2015, 11:27   #20
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What Steve said. IME both Berry and Ranier have thinner plating.
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