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Old 12-30-2014, 10:39   #1
hogfish
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OCW Load Development

I just ran into this website that seems to approach load development in a different way, while rejecting the notion that all rifles are different and must like different loads.

If you look for 'OCW Overview' you will find the site.

From the site: "Think about it this way. Some kids like mashed potatoes, some don't. Some kids will eat their peas, some won't. Some kids like bananas, some hate 'em. But show me a kid that does not like chocolate ice cream and I'll show you one bizarre little character! An OCW load is like chocolate ice cream to your rifle. If your rifle doesn't like that recipe, there is likely something weird about your rifle."

It looks interesting, and I intend to check it out.
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Old 12-30-2014, 10:56   #2
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Old 12-30-2014, 11:54   #3
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http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/

I know very accomplished shooters that swear this is the holy grail, others, equally accomplished less impressed. The latter group usually have tried and true methods, some pretty exotic in nature, to get to their favored load.

Sure doesn't hurt to play with it, decide for yourself.
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Old 12-30-2014, 12:30   #4
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I went that direction when I developed a load for my 260.
Worked quite well.
Shot the test at 300yd and the data I go was pretty easy to see.
That load has been consistent from 10 to 100+ degrees and i have very little vertical deviation well past 1000 yds.
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Old 12-30-2014, 22:48   #5
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Dan Newberry, the guy that came up with it, is a sharp dude. Talked with him a few times and paid the $30 or so to help me work up a 300 Wby load recently. Still got to get around to it, been busy. He has regular 1200 yard shoots, teaches shooting classes, etc. I plan to do that soon too. Buying a Savage Model 12 in 260 mainly for his, and other area long range shooting events. Google Bang Steel. SW Virginia.


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Old 12-31-2014, 18:35   #6
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I read through his site, and I find that what he says makes sense.
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Old 01-03-2015, 22:56   #7
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He is a real no nonsense kind of guy. Advocates skill and reloading proficiency over high dollar guns and scopes is the jist of what I took away from my conversations. Followed his advice and put a $169 bushnell Elite 10x on my 300 Wby Vanguard ($450 Walmart gun). My buddy and I were both hitting 8" plate at 510 yards after sighting it in, with only 20 factory rounds and unknown velocity. It's not all about high dollar custom rifles and S&B scopes. Sure, it's great to shoot a $8,000 gun if you got one. But not required for long distance accuracy. Will shoot the Wby in 1000 yard events till I can spring for the Savage Model 12 in 260 and Bushnell 3.5-21. Dans input has me more focused on reloading and basic marksmanship skills. Which is great, as I'm broke at the moment. Ha ha. Anyone reloading rifle rounds would benefit by reading up on the OCW approach.



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Old 01-04-2015, 16:58   #8
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There is an error in his testing methodology.

http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspa...ons/4529817134

"you will then fire your first shot from the first group of the graduated charges. You fire this shot at target number 1.

12. Allow the barrel to cool, then fire a shot from the second graduation at target number 2. Wait for cooling of the barrel, then fire a shot from the third graduation at target number 3. Continue this "round robin" sequence until you have been through all of the targets three times. At this point you will have a three shot group on each of the targets."



So, lets make this a 5 load test.

What you shoot is:

1,2,3,4,5 1,2,3,4,5 1,2,3,4,5 1,2,3,4,5 1,2,3,4,5


So if you notice, shot two is always dependent on the preceding shot 1. Shot 5 is always the last shot (hottest barrel).

What I have done using this is also randomized the shot sequence.

For a 5 shot load development, I use:

2,5,1,3,4 1,5,2,4,3 3,1,4,5,2 3,2,1,5,4 1,4,3,2,5
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Old 01-04-2015, 19:29   #9
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Is a cool barrel going to shoot different than a cool barrel? If you wait for the barrel to cool before the next shot does it matter?

What I picked up from the methodology was wait for the barrel to cool before taking the next shot.

I suppose having a completely random string may completely remove operator induced noise in the test. You should give Dan Newberry a shout and show him the error in his test method.
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Old 01-04-2015, 19:47   #10
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No error identified. And a call to Dan would be the fastest way to better understand it. Very approachable guy in my experience. Which isn't much, just exchanged a few phone calls and emails. But he would be happy to help anyone better understand his method.
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Old 01-04-2015, 19:52   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
There is an error in his testing...

Shot 5 is always the last shot (hottest barrel).


No, the last shot is always the last shot. Same value and methodology to every shot, whether it's 1, 2, 5, 14, 22, etc. last shot is the last shot. Think about them singularly, not in strings of 5. As I understand it, which is not thoroughly yet, we are looking for an accuracy node, rather than a nice 3 or 5 shot group. A change in pace for me, perhaps others as well. But it's about finding an accuracy node, or a range of peak accuracy in a given load.
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Old 01-04-2015, 19:52   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdTracker View Post
Is a cool barrel going to shoot different than a cool barrel? If you wait for the barrel to cool before the next shot does it matter?

What I picked up from the methodology was wait for the barrel to cool before taking the next shot.

I suppose having a completely random string may completely remove operator induced noise in the test. You should give Dan Newberry a shout and show him the error in his test method.
A cool barrel is not always a cool barrel. Unless you shoot it at the same temperature, each time, and you are measuring the temperature (with something accurate) you have added heat with shots. Cooling completely from shot to shot is for many not realistic.

Also, unless you clean between each shot doing them in order 2 is always dirtier than 1. 3 than 2.
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Old 01-04-2015, 19:56   #13
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I don't see any advantage to one sequence versus another. If the barrel is cool, the previous shot should have no effect on the current shot. That's the whole purpose of letting the barrel cool.

The problem is defining 'cool'. How long does it take to 'cool' a heavy profile barrel? Five minutes, and hour, tomorrow some time? The opposite is also true: How many shots can be made on a cool heavy profile barrel before it isn't 'cool'.

When I get time, I'm going to have to reread the pages. On the first page there are a lot of words but not much information. Maybe it gets better... I didn't see the point. Or perhaps I missed the point in all the words. I have a short attention span and that page reads like an infomercial.

The big problem for me in shooting groups, thus selecting a load, is that I don't always shoot very well. I can make two or three pretty good shots and the next one lands up on Mars. In all of the load development processes, it is assumed that the shooter is perfect. In my case, that simply isn't true. I suspect it isn't true for a lot of people.

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Old 01-04-2015, 19:58   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danattherock View Post
No error identified. And a call to Dan would be the fastest way to better understand it. Very approachable guy in my experience. Which isn't much, just exchanged a few phone calls and emails. But he would be happy to help anyone better understand his method.
I understand DEO (design of experiments) very well.

Google Counterbalanced Measures design.

Here is a link and it explains why it is done that way.

https://explorable.com/counterbalanced-measures-design
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Old 01-04-2015, 20:01   #15
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Originally Posted by F106 Fan View Post
I don't see any advantage to one sequence versus another. If the barrel is cool, the previous shot should have no effect on the current shot. That's the whole purpose of letting the barrel cool.

The problem is defining 'cool'. How long does it take to 'cool' a heavy profile barrel? Five minutes, and hour, tomorrow some time? The opposite is also true: How many shots can be made on a cool heavy profile barrel before it isn't 'cool'.

When I get time, I'm going to have to reread the pages. On the first page there are a lot of words but not much information. Maybe it gets better... I didn't see the point. Or perhaps I missed the point in all the words. I have a short attention span and that page reads like an infomercial.

The big problem for me in shooting groups, thus selecting a load, is that I don't always shoot very well. I can make two or three pretty good shots and the next one lands up on Mars. In all of the load development processes, it is assumed that the shooter is perfect. In my case, that simply isn't true. I suspect it isn't true for a lot of people.

Richard
Richard,

To summarize the OCW pages

The "ladder load" shoot order is

1,1,1 2,2,2 3,3,3 4,4,4 5,5,5

The OCW shoot order is

1,2,3,4,5 1,2,3,4,5 1,2,3,4,5

The idea is that by shooting in this manner systematic variation is spread across the sample groups and therefor minimized. Therefor you can say that systematic error is the same for all groups therefor the results of being the smallest groups are only due to power charge.

That is the cliffs notes version.
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Old 01-04-2015, 22:09   #16
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And that makes perfect sense. What is it exactly that you think is wrong with the cliff note version? It is a very logical approach in my opinion.
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Old 01-04-2015, 23:04   #17
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I would expect the random error caused by the shooter to far outweigh the systematic error caused by the load. That is clearly the case for my shooting!

The system must work, notable shooters are using it. I just haven't had the attention span to read through it.

At the moment, I have a very good load for my Rem 700. I'm not looking for any improvement except in my shooting. However, I am planning to buy another rifle some time this year and maybe that would be the time to try something different.

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Old 01-05-2015, 00:08   #18
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If OCW is of interest, Dan offers a consult (load development) for about $30. That's what I recently did for 300 Wby. The gun shot 5/8" groups with 4350 and 168 gr A Max, so I'm not doing it for it's intended purpose. But rather just to learn from Dan about the OCW process itself. I lost the recipe years ago, and would have to rediscover the powder charge. But figured it was a good way to learn about OCW. I will apply it to other pursuits later.
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Old 01-05-2015, 00:23   #19
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Quote:
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If OCW is of interest, Dan offers a consult (load development) for about $30.
I saw that and I saw the collection of recommended loads. Turns out I have some Varget for the .308 175 gr bullet so I might just load a few to see how they work.

I really need to get out of the VV N540 business. I am less likely to find N540 than I am to find Varget.

In a perfect world, I would find an IMR 3031 load that would work with the 175 gr MK. I have nearly 16# of that stuff! Right now, I am using it in my M1A because I can't find IMR 4895.

If I run out of N540 and have to move to a different powder, maybe I'll give the OCW process a go.

Richard
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