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Old 03-26-2008, 23:10   #1
brawnless
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1911

Hi,

Would it be possible to build an all steel (tool / forged), full size, single stack 1911 from the ground up? ie. availability of parts, good gunsmith, finish? What is the approximate budget for this?

What parts are the most diverse? ie. having the most number of options?

Thanks in advance!

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Old 03-27-2008, 01:20   #2
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Oh, the guys here in Cebu province, especially from Danao City, have been doing it for decades!

Seriously, get an Armscor or Shooters frame (local) or some sort of Korean-made frame Twin Pines sells, or an Imbel (Springfield Armory) frame, and start from there. Parts are universally available (both local and imported) and will enable you to build a 1911 to your tastes.
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Old 03-27-2008, 02:58   #3
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Ang dali ng solusyon dyan. Bili ka ng mil-spec na Norinco at P 15,000 tapos bumili ka ng lahat ng premium parts i.e. Ed Brown Hard Core, Wilson Combat Bulletproof, STI, etc.

Meron nga sa Pinoy Guns sa Lanceriley nagbuo sya inabot yata ng P 100k. Pero syempre depende yan sa taste at budget mo.
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Old 03-27-2008, 03:48   #4
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bumili ka na lang ng colt, norinco, armscor or taurus 1911. para walang sakit ng ulo. putok ka na lang ng putok.
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Old 03-27-2008, 04:38   #5
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mas ok for my opinion kung gusto mo na magamit ung boomer mo you buy an armscor or norinco gun then pakonti konti u change the parts kung ano gusto mo na brand and budget.kung gusto mo naman ng hi end na boomer look for people na nagbebenta ng 2nd hand na gusto mag change sa ibang model or nagsawa na sa looks ng boomer nila,if you will compute the price and kung may gusto ka pa palitan mas makakatipid ka pa din,or buy 2nd hand good parts sa mga nagupgrade mas makakatipid ka pa din.pero kung madami na budget go for from scratch,mas mapipili mo ang parts na gusto mo at ung looks ng boomer mo masusunod,un nga lang after ng lahat wala ka na din gagawin sa boomer mo at mabobored ka na sa looks niya.so better isipin mo muna kung saan mo gusto gamitin,if for ipsc go for quality 1st then looks,pag pang display go for both.
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Old 03-27-2008, 05:54   #6
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Thanks for the replies!

Imbel frame = Springfield frame? Interesting.

Parts mostly look the same and I find it hard to tell the difference from one brand to the other (except from the wrapper).

I know nothing about the 1911 except that the grip and accuracy is better than my g17.

Will go for quality.
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Old 03-27-2008, 08:12   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brawnless View Post
Thanks for the replies!

Imbel frame = Springfield frame? Interesting.

Parts mostly look the same and I find it hard to tell the difference from one brand to the other (except from the wrapper).

I know nothing about the 1911 except that the grip, trigger and accuracy is better than my g17.

Will go for quality.
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Old 03-27-2008, 09:22   #8
chowchow
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Norinco pre, maganda ang presyo at talagang tumatamang husto.
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Old 03-27-2008, 09:54   #9
royal glockster
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Lots of SAM frames available at Shooters Cubao...1911 specs and 100% parts compatible with hi-end parts like ed brown or wilson. The bare frame costs about 5.5k when i inquired at them about one year ago..
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Old 03-27-2008, 22:18   #10
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Also, try to get in touch with Deenoh and ask about the Firestorm 1911 that he sells.
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Old 03-29-2008, 13:35   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brawnless View Post
Thanks for the replies!

Imbel frame = Springfield frame? Interesting.

Parts mostly look the same and I find it hard to tell the difference from one brand to the other (except from the wrapper).

I know nothing about the 1911 except that the grip and accuracy is better than my g17.

Will go for quality.
Aha, springlfield Armory uses forgings from imbel.
As far as accuracy, depends on who is behind the gun.
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Old 04-17-2008, 20:21   #12
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Hi brawnless

Just wondering what happend to your project.

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Old 04-17-2008, 20:54   #13
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Inherent defect in norincos?

Guys this is the article of a local writer about an alleged defect in norinco pistols to guide you in your next purchase and to invite the attention of current norinco owners to confirm the info. and do something about it.


Wednesday, March 26, 2008
Rama: Notes on the Norinco 1911
By Karlon N. Rama
Stage Five


I HAVE received lots of e-mailed queries over the years. Some ask about shooting and some about guns. This one I got from Joe Venison (jvenison@gmail.com) last Sunday is about guns, the Norinco 1911 in particular.

“I’d like to know your thoughts about the ill-fitted barrels on those Norinco 1911s. I’m talking about the no gap between the barrel ramp and the frame ramp and the rear of the lower lug not touching the VIS on barrel link-down. How do you think those parameters can affect reliability and longevity in the long run?” he posed.

And when I mailed him back saying I’ve never received a complaint like his from anybody before, he replied that this was a common problem among Norincos that reached the US, where he is based, via Canada, and offered a few more details:

“As for the barrel link-down, the slide can move without problem. The barrel will not be stopped by the VIS but for the link. That could eventually make the link to stretch. If that happens, the timing of the barrel will be delayed. In that case, the upper lugs may be shaved making for an unsafe barrel.

“As for the other problem, the no gap issue, it seems to shoot ball ammo without a hiccup. But I guess it’s a matter of time or cartridge OAL (Overall All Length - KNR) for them to happen. With any other brand of barrel it’d be as easy as to file a little bit the barrel ramp—very carefully. But those Norinco barrels seem to be hard chromed so if they’re to be filed that hard chrome would start to chip off.

Before sending his query, Joe had apparently read a review I made years back on the “shootability” of the Chinese nineteen-eleven. But in that review, I didn’t check the internal specs of the pistol. I merely shot a specimen provided by Atty. Neil Nuñez side by side with an American Kimber, making observations along the way.

Thus, drawing blank from the notes I made for that earlier gun review, and not having a Norinco pistol of my own, I had to call in the artillery if only to understand Joe’s concerns and find out if his observations on the Norincos abroad could also be said of the Norincos here.

So off to hobbyist gunsmith Glenn Diaz I went last Monday and, after stating the nature of the problem, we disassembled and dissected Army Reserve Mst. Sgt. Ernie Aliviado’s Norinco 1911 in the workbench of Alvin John Osmeña’s machine shop.

On the barrel ramp issue, Joe got it spot on. The gap between the frame ramp and the barrel ramp in Ernie’s Norinco, bought from Royal Interarms, didn’t reach 1/32 of an inch prescribed by our gun-deity Jerry Kuhnhausen.

We (Glenn, Alvin, Ernie, I and precision machinist George Lavandero) measured this by attaching the barrel on the frame and keeping it together by inserting the crosspin through the pin hole on the frame and through the barrel-link. We then pushed the barrel as far back as barrel-link and the crosspin tension would allow and observed how the barrel ramp almost aligned with the frame ramp.

On a well-fitted gun, the barrel would have traveled rearward but stopped within 1/32 inches from the edge of the frame ramp.

And on how the Norinco barrel, during link-down, is stopped by the crosspin and barrel-link tension and not by the leading edge of the frame’s barrel-recess or bed (Joe called it the VIS), we found what Joe said to be true also in Ernie’s pistol.

I disassembled my nineteen-eleven from Colt and determined that, at least in my gun, the barrel is stopped by both the crosspin and barrel link tension and the front end of frame’s barrel recess.

This was evidenced by the signs of metal-to-metal contact between the rear portion of my barrel lug and the front edge of my frame’s bed.

There were no such trace of contact between the lug and what Joe calls the VIS in Ernie’s gun.

BY dissecting a locally purchased Norinco 1911 Monday last week, Glenn Diaz, Alvin Osmeña, George Lavandero, Mst. Sgt. Ernie Aliviado and I were able to confirm what Stage Five reader Joe Venison (jvenison@gmail.com) had observed among Norincos available in the US via Canada.

The findings have implications.

With the gap between the barrel ramp and the frame ramp being closer than what it ought to be, the gun may jam when fed with cartridges featuring lead bullets or those in semi-wadcutter configuration.

And, without the frame’s barrel recess supporting the lugs in Ernie’s Norinco during link-down, the barrel link would either break or stretch after a few thousand rounds.

The job of the barrel link is to bring the barrel up and down during the process of going into battery.

By forcing it to take on another role—that of stopping the barrel in place while in the process of recoil—it will break or stretch after extensive use.

When that happens, the lock-unlock timing between the frame and the barrel will go out of sync. The upper lugs will begin to wear out soon, causing all kinds of accuracy and reliability issues.

But, Glenn finds that the problem, at least in Ernie’s gun, wasn’t really in the barrel. In fact, he said the barrel was machined to “within published tolerances.”

He believes while the barrel “could use a little bit of work,” the misfit begins with the frame.

To confirm, we measured the gap between the pin hole in the frame, where the crosspin is supposed to be inserted to lock the barrel to the frame, and the face of the frame’s barrel recess or bed with a caliper. It measured .343 of an inch.

We followed the same procedure on a Para-Ordnance and a Colt Series 80 frame and got a shorter distance of .331 or thereabouts.

Technically, because the link pin in the Norinco is located farther from the barrel recess than most other guns, the barrel ramp and the frame ramp should have had the necessary gap.

Puzzled, we then measured the length of the barrel recess. The Norinco gave us a reading of .265 of an inch. On the other hand, we got a reading of .295 when we measured the Para and the Colt.

Apparently, the ramp on the Norinco frame is canted too forward, eating up what distance should have been present.

And on the problem of the barrel’s lower lug not being supported by the leading end of the barrel recess, we found that it had been chamfered too deep.

It isn’t a problem without a solution though.

Glenn suggests giving the barrel ramp a bit of work my milling it down a bit and then giving it another throat job with polish.

By milling it, one forces a gap between the barrel ramp and the frame ramp.

Milling can be done with ease, even if the barrel is hard-chromed. He said one can use a Dremel to get the chrome off and then proceed with the necessary file.

But be cautious. One cannot mill the barrel ramp too far, lest it leaves a part of the chamber unsupported. If this happens, I’m willing to bet that the next round the gun fires will suffer a case-head separation.

One can also build up the frame ramp by welding some metal into it.

On the barrel lug problem, Glenn recommends getting a longer link and, if that does not suffice, build up that part of the bed that has been chamfered off or build the lug up with metal to force it to touch the edge of the barrel bed.

The observations we made while at Alvin’s workshop confirmed what Joe also observed with Norincos he bought in the US via Canada.

However, I have to say that the problems these fitting issues tend to cause do not coincide with my personal shooting experience with the Norinco. The gun doesn’t merely shoot, it shoots reliably and is passably accurate.

But, then again, the number of rounds I have fired in a Norinco hasn’t been that voluminous. Perhaps, I simply have not yet reached the breaking point with it.

A word to the wise, have any new gun inspected by a qualified gun person before firing.
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Old 04-17-2008, 21:10   #14
isuzu
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That problem could be easily corrected by a competent gunsmith specializing in 1911s.

The first thing that my gunsmith did when I got my former Norinco 1911 was to check the timing, change the barrel link, and throat the barrel. There chroming did not chip when the barrel was throated.

My other former 1911, a Springfield Armory which I purchased in 1990, did not feed semi-wad cutters and hollow point ammo at all. The throat was designed to accept only round-nosed ammo, as what the original 1911 was designed to do.

Those problems also appeared on popular-brand 1911s that weren't reliable out of the box and had to be brought to a gunsmith to keep them functioning properly.

It was only until the 90's that the 1911 manufacturers responded to customer complaints and also from pressure from from other non-1911 pistol manufacturers that came out with reliable products out of the box.

One of the first 1911 manufacturers that listened to customers' needs and offered reliable, out of the box 1911s was Springfield Armory, which also introduced their Loaded 1911s.
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Old 04-18-2008, 00:49   #15
brawnless
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frontsight68 View Post
Hi brawnless

Just wondering what happend to your project.

Frontsight
Hi Frontsight,

Some suggestions were:

1. Shoot some more (1911's)
2. Read some more
3. Wait for the gunshow

a. look at the displays (stock / custom)
b. talk to the gunsmiths

Haven't paid close attention to 1911's in previous gunshows. This year is going to be interesting.

brawnless
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