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Old 08-25-2008, 12:35   #81
Rikki
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Civitas- I understand what you want- somebody to do a blind test... I'm pretty suspect that a blind test would do anything to satisfy you.
It's "appearing" like nobody can make you happy on this deal.
Look, your "blind test" will in no way account for shooter fatigue, barrel fouling, or the shooter becoming more comfortable with the cof., or any of the OTHER excuses you're getting ready to use.
You've already said that shooting outa a rest or off bags isn't gonna make a difference in a defensive shooting situation. Seems like you're already poo-pooing the value of the part...
I suggest you keep on doubting, sit on the cynical sidelines, and keep your 30 bone.
You got a boatload of SHOOTERS here that say it's a good value and makes your pistol run better.This AIN'T the "No Man Left Behind" group. If you can't /won't pony up nobody here is gonna beg you to buy one.
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Old 08-25-2008, 12:49   #82
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Last edited by Civitas; 08-25-2008 at 12:53..
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Old 08-25-2008, 12:52   #83
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Originally Posted by Rikki View Post
Civitas- I understand what you want- somebody to do a blind test... I'm pretty suspect that a blind test would do anything to satisfy you.
It's "appearing" like nobody can make you happy on this deal.
Look, your "blind test" will in no way account for shooter fatigue, barrel fouling, or the shooter becoming more comfortable with the cof., or any of the OTHER excuses you're getting ready to use.
If the shots are taken back to back, those things you mention should not be an issue. And of course YOU brought them up, not me. If you are worried about the "becoming comfortable" issue, you could do two sets of shots with each slide lock, alternating between them or just do a train of shots with the first configuration before you start the test. Unfortunately, what you are saying is that you just WANT to believe in this part and don't care about evidence. Not a healthy attitude when it comes to weapons that you trust your life to.

Quote:
You've already said that shooting outa a rest or off bags isn't gonna make a difference in a defensive shooting situation. Seems like you're already poo-pooing the value of the part...
Excuse me, but are you saying that differences seen only on a rest are relevant to defensive shooting? You need to stop the cheerleading and be a little more logical.
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Old 08-27-2008, 06:31   #84
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I've tried PM'ing and emailing Mr. Graham. If anyone knows him, please ask him to contact me via PM.
Thanks,
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Old 08-27-2008, 13:27   #85
T. R. Graham
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Originally Posted by Noponer View Post
No disrespect to TR or to anyone who has fired a Glock with the MGSL, but I do not see how it helps. I have not tested a gun with one, so I will have to believe those of you who have tested one.

The slide lock does not "address lockup" as BOGE stated. Take the slidelock out of your gun & slip the slide/barrel assembly back on. The locking block pulls the assembly out of - & into - lockup. The slide lock simply determines how far the assembly moves forward on the guide rails before stopping. A thicker, better machined, & wider slide stop will just make stop farther to the rear by the extra thickness of the stop.

Once, I installed a factory slide stop in backward. That makes the slide sit back so much farther (because no groove on the other side) that it is noticable. The gun worked OK like this for several months. Afer I noticed the slide hanging over rear of the frame. I investigated & installed the stop correctly.

Maybe someone can explain to me - & anyone else who wants to know - HOW the MGSL works. General references to "better quality", "more precise", etc. still do not explain HOW that makes a Glock group better. If I knew that it would help, I would buy some, at least for my USPSA guns.
My computer has been down for the last few days.

Ok, lets take this point by point -

<< The slide lock does not "address lockup" >>

Sorry, but this is incorrect. When I started looking for ways to enhance the accuracy of the Glock pistol back in 1992 I noted the following -

The Glock barrel makes contact in four areas :

1. The front of the slide where the barrel passes through.
2. The front of the ejection port where the barrel chamber locks.
3. The rear of the ejection port where the barrel hood contacts.

and last.....

4. the barrel lug where it contacts the slide lock.

Now, there is nothing simple that can be done to the first three areas on the list. They are all in the slide, and in a stock Glock the slide has very little to do with the accuracy of the pistol. Remember, this is not a 1911. The slide "floats" on four small rails, and is also guided by the both the recoil spring guide rod and the barrel. There is generally a considerable amount of play between the frame and slide, regardless of how the barrel fits in the slide. The "root" which positions the barrel/slide assembly to the frame is the slide lock.

<< The locking block pulls the assembly out of - & into - lockup. >>

Correct. However, the locking block does nothing to consistantly position the barrel. In its stock form, all it does is cams the barrel up or down. It does not contact the barrel lug when the pistol is in battery.

<< The slide lock simply determines how far the assembly moves forward on the guide rails before stopping. >>

The slide lock also determines the position of the barrel/slide assembly to the frame.

<< A thicker, better machined, & wider slide stop will just make stop farther to the rear by the extra thickness of the stop. >>

Not unless you install the slide lock backwards. Properly installed, the barrel lug engages a groove in the slide stop. The position, depth and width of the barrel locking groove in the slide lock determines the both the lockup of the barrel and the position of the slide.

<< Maybe someone can explain to me - & anyone else who wants to know - HOW the MGSL works. >>

Simply put, my MGSL works by consistantly locking the barrel (and slide) in the same position relative to the frame from shot to shot.

<< General references to "better quality", "more precise", etc. still do not explain HOW that makes a Glock group better. If I knew that it would help, I would buy some, at least for my USPSA guns >>

Anyone who is skeptical about the MGSL can find out for themselves if it works or not by simply buying one. I have a full money back guarantee (shipping included)........

My best advertisement is a satisfied client, and I have many, MANY satisfied clients.
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Last edited by T. R. Graham; 08-27-2008 at 18:46..
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Old 08-27-2008, 13:50   #86
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My best advertisement is a satisfied client, and I have many, MANY satisfied clients.
+1, and that's why I'm ordering another one.
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Old 08-27-2008, 13:52   #87
T. R. Graham
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Originally Posted by Civitas View Post
What bothers me is that so many people are so excited about this part but nobody has actually tested it in a scientific way.
I did. I spent well over a year testing and refining this "simple" part before releasing it to the public. It was tested for the following :

Effect on reliability.
Accuracy enhancement.
Compatibility with stock and aftermarket barrels.
Durability.

The MGSL is so significantly different from the stock part that I have a patent pending.

Regards,
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Old 08-27-2008, 14:03   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. R. Graham View Post
I did. I spent well over a year testing and refining this "simple" part before releasing it to the public. It was tested for the following :

Effect on reliability.
Accuracy enhancement.
Compatibility with stock and aftermarket barrels.
Durability.

The MGSL is so significantly different from the stock part that I have a patent pending.

Regards,

TR Graham
The Glocksmith
TR, is there a way to predict which Glocks will benefit most from installation of your MGSL? For instance, would a Glock that is pretty darn accurate with the stock part be more or less likely to show significant improvement than a Glock with somewhat disappointing accuracy?
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Old 08-27-2008, 14:15   #89
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Thanks

Thanks for the answers, TR.

I emailed you a few days ago inquiring about your price, etc. but, like some others, had not heard back. Sorry your computer was down.

I will call you at (832)695-7192 later today to order an MGSL.
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Old 08-27-2008, 15:31   #90
T. R. Graham
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Originally Posted by gary newport View Post
TR, is there a way to predict which Glocks will benefit most from installation of your MGSL? For instance, would a Glock that is pretty darn accurate with the stock part be more or less likely to show significant improvement than a Glock with somewhat disappointing accuracy?
The only way to tell would be to try and see, and this is caliber specific to a certain extent.

In my testing I found that the .40 caliber pistols had the most accuracy enhancment, and the 9mms the least. This would be between 7 to 35% from stock. Every other caliber tested (.357Sig, 10mm and .45ACP) the accuracy enhancement fell somewhere in between. The only calibers not tested were .380ACP (couldn't get one) .22 LR and .45GAP (wasn't out yet)
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Old 08-27-2008, 15:58   #91
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Originally Posted by T. R. Graham View Post
The only way to tell would be to try and see, and this is caliber specific to a certain extent.

In my testing I found that the .40 caliber pistols had the most accuracy enhancment, and the 9mms the least. This would be between 7 to 35% from stock. Every other caliber tested (.357Sig, 10mm and .45ACP) the accuracy enhancement fell somewhere in between. The only calibers not tested were .380ACP (couldn't get one) .22 LR and .45GAP (wasn't out yet)
TR -
How do you figure the % of change... by the difference of group diameters, or area of group sizes (pi x r squared, etc.), or distance difference of most widespread hits?
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Old 08-27-2008, 17:43   #92
T. R. Graham
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TR -
How do you figure the % of change... by the difference of group diameters, or area of group sizes (pi x r squared, etc.), or distance difference of most widespread hits?
By group diameter, tested off a specially modified Ransom Rest.
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Old 08-27-2008, 19:42   #93
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OK TR first thank you for taking time to come here and explain this innovation.

One question I had was related to my use of a 9mm G34.

As I examine my firearm with probably somewhere on the order of ~17 or 18k rounds, I examine the play found in the barrel while in battery and do not see much. It does not rattle much. This being the case, I am expecting that the amout of barrel movement from mechanical variation is small enough that my marksmanship is not going to improve by freezing the place the barrel locks into battery. How many thousands are we observing here?

Perhaps my question is more personal that one contributing to the discussion and if you prefer, please PM me on some abstract test results you ran with various ammo on this particular gun.

Thanks In advance for your help.
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Old 08-28-2008, 17:00   #94
Civitas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Civitas Gun-Parts & Access.
What bothers me is that so many people are so excited about this part but nobody has actually tested it in a scientific way.



Quote:
Originally Posted by T. R. Graham View Post
I did. I spent well over a year testing and refining this "simple" part before releasing it to the public. It was tested for the following :

Effect on reliability.
Accuracy enhancement.
Compatibility with stock and aftermarket barrels.
Durability.

The MGSL is so significantly different from the stock part that I have a patent pending.

Regards,
Ok, thanks. That's what I was hoping for. I appreciate your reply.
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Old 08-28-2008, 20:32   #95
Ashes
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I got mine today and I'm looking forward to trying it out this weekend. I've also taken a good look at the two parts side by side and I think I've managed to wrap my head around how the new part works. But first, I want to blow through 200 rounds and test it all out.
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Old 08-30-2008, 02:21   #96
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Went to the range today with my new G21sf and MGSL shooting 200g swc with 5g bullseye. I was impressed with the results when I saw my groups at 25yds. Using a 5" Shoot-N-C targets I could easily stay in the black with 1-1/2 to 2" groups of 5 rounds. Previously my shots would be mixed with some out of the black on to the cardboard. Could easily tear up the 5" target with quick shots in confidence. I am surprised that a Glock was that accurate. This is definitely a worthwhile upgrade for any Glock. The picture of the targets in the earlier post tells it all!
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Old 09-01-2008, 09:35   #97
Ashes
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Went out to the range and put 200 rounds through a Glock 17 to break in the MGSL. This particular G17 already has a few thousand rouds though it, which is evident by the bright wear mark in the notch of the stock slide lock.

Some things to note about the MGSL:
Package recommends 200 rounds to breakin the MSGL.
The MSGL feels heavier than the stock part. Don't have my powder measure on hand so I can't weigh them to compare.
The MSGL has a matte finish while the old part is shiny.
The slot/groove where the barrel contacts the slidelock is much smaller on the MSGL.
For some reason the MSGL feels like it requires more effort to unlock the slide than the stock part. I guess its a good thing its extended more than stock.
On a new MSGL, while working the slide, you can feel the barrel lockup with the slide lock right after the barrel hood lines up with the slide. After 200 rounds this second lockup/click feeling disappears when working the slide.
After 200 rounds the lower outside edge of MSGL's notch/groove has been polished/rounded slightly so that I can see it shine. This is probably what got rid of the second lockup/click feeling.

Went to the range intending to burn through 200 rounds of ammo. Ended up burning through 200 rounds of +p+ ball ammo that was on sale. What a blast. Normally I shoot at 21' because I'm trying to work out the issue where I shoot low and left, but on this day with the MSGL installed, everything was going in dead center. Even with the target pushed out to 35', my groups stayed tight and on center. At the end of the session, I swapped back in the stock slide lock and shot a nice tight group, (slightly left of center). Then swapped the MSGL and screwed up the sight picture with a few flyers, (but these were all centered). So no picture comparison on accuracy. I'm going to have to grab a bud and try a blind test next time.

Another thing I found was that my new glasses were giving me trouble through the whole session. I would have a clear sight picture on the first shot and sometime during the string, my sight picture would fuzz up and I'd lose focus on all three planes. It would screw me up enough that I'd have to stop to reaquire focus. So another thing for next trip is to bring my old glasses.
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Old 09-01-2008, 12:50   #98
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I shoot a G34 and at the range this week, took a look at the amount of movement on the barrel when in battery. When I push down on the barrel exposed on the slide when in battery, I get maybe a 64th of an inch, maybe a 32nd movement straight down. Nothing from side to side. When I release my finger, the barrel returns flush with the slide and the difference is barely noticable by the touch. Each time I rack, the slide and barrel are exactly flush on top. If this is the case, discharging a round will be consistent and as a mater of fact, my gun shoots POI/POA exactly. I may be one of the ones, who doesnt have a problem to repair yet. I may look at my G19 and see if there is any difference in this finding.
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Old 09-01-2008, 22:35   #99
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Sidewinder6, 1/64" = 0.015625. Not much, right? To raise bullet impact 2" at 25 yds. the equation would be: 8 x 2 / 900 = .0177" for 8" between front & rear sights. Hence, two in. would be a great improvement. This is of course extrapolating that a "bank vault" lockup enhances accuracy.

I have not had a chance to shoot my guns yet with the new Graham lock due to other matters but I can't wait. Even if it does not enhance accuracy I've learned over $60 (I bought two) in my time reading this thread.
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Old 09-01-2008, 23:15   #100
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This is all very interesting.
I think I'll pull out all my Glocks and check the wear patern on each SL.
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