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Old 09-01-2008, 23:36   #101
T. R. Graham
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashes View Post
Some things to note about the MGSL:
Package recommends 200 rounds to breakin the MSGL.
The MSGL feels heavier than the stock part. Don't have my powder measure on hand so I can't weigh them to compare.
The MSGL has a matte finish while the old part is shiny.
The slot/groove where the barrel contacts the slidelock is much smaller on the MSGL.
For some reason the MSGL feels like it requires more effort to unlock the slide than the stock part. I guess its a good thing its extended more than stock.
On a new MSGL, while working the slide, you can feel the barrel lockup with the slide lock right after the barrel hood lines up with the slide. After 200 rounds this second lockup/click feeling disappears when working the slide.
After 200 rounds the lower outside edge of MSGL's notch/groove has been polished/rounded slightly so that I can see it shine. This is probably what got rid of the second lockup/click feeling.

Went to the range intending to burn through 200 rounds of ammo. Ended up burning through 200 rounds of +p+ ball ammo that was on sale. What a blast. Normally I shoot at 21' because I'm trying to work out the issue where I shoot low and left, but on this day with the MSGL installed, everything was going in dead center. Even with the target pushed out to 35', my groups stayed tight and on center. At the end of the session, I swapped back in the stock slide lock and shot a nice tight group, (slightly left of center). Then swapped the MSGL and screwed up the sight picture with a few flyers, (but these were all centered). So no picture comparison on accuracy. I'm going to have to grab a bud and try a blind test next time.

Another thing I found was that my new glasses were giving me trouble through the whole session. I would have a clear sight picture on the first shot and sometime during the string, my sight picture would fuzz up and I'd lose focus on all three planes. It would screw me up enough that I'd have to stop to reaquire focus. So another thing for next trip is to bring my old glasses.
Ashes -

1. I was being conservative with the 200 round break-in. Most folks see a difference between 100 - 150 rounds.
2. It should be slightly heavier, bar stock (MGSL) vs. stamped steel (stock).
3. The finish on the MGSL is black oxide. Stock is black paint.
4. The barrel locking slot is smaller to consistantly lock the barrel from shot to shot. (Which is why your group was centered with the MGSL installed.)
5. Subjective. This will vary from gun to gun.
6. This "clicking" is due to the MGSL wearing in.
7. Correct.

Get used to your glasses, then get your friend to help you with the blind test - I believe you will find a difference in his and your group sizes with the MGSL installed.

Regards,
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Old 09-02-2008, 00:02   #102
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Mr. Graham,

What is your theory on why the MGSL helps the accuracy of 40S&W more than other calibers and why it has less effect on 9mm?
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Old 09-03-2008, 21:59   #103
T. R. Graham
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Originally Posted by 1glock View Post
Mr. Graham,

What is your theory on why the MGSL helps the accuracy of 40S&W more than other calibers and why it has less effect on 9mm?
Simply put, the .40 S&W round is not as accurate as the 9mm.

Glock barrels are geared more for feed reliability than for accuracy.
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Old 09-03-2008, 23:27   #104
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I think it is not so much the .40 S&W being more inherently inaccurate, but rather the rate of twist in the rifling used. A few custom gunmakers have used a different rate of twist on aftermarket barrels and turned the .40 into a tackdriver. Most makers use a 1 in 16" twist rate whereas the old 38-40 Win. (which has a nominal 0.400 groove diameter) used a 1 in 36" twist rate.
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Old 09-04-2008, 14:35   #105
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Originally Posted by BOGE View Post
I think it is not so much the .40 S&W being more inherently inaccurate, but rather the rate of twist in the rifling used. A few custom gunmakers have used a different rate of twist on aftermarket barrels and turned the .40 into a tackdriver. Most makers use a 1 in 16" twist rate whereas the old 38-40 Win. (which has a nominal 0.400 groove diameter) used a 1 in 36" twist rate.
True, almost any cartridge can be made to shoot very accurately using a custom barrel twist set up to a specific bullet diameter and weight.

However, certain cartridges - due to bullet weight, case design or other factors - are more inherently more accurate than others, even if they are the same nominal caliber. Some notable examples :

.22 Long vs .22 Long Rifle
6mm Remington vs .243 Winchester
.38 Super vs 9mm Luger
.40 S&W vs 10mm

There are others.
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Old 09-04-2008, 14:50   #106
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Originally Posted by T. R. Graham View Post
Simply put, the .40 S&W round is not as accurate as the 9mm.

Glock barrels are geared more for feed reliability than for accuracy.
Shortly after the .40 S&W cartridge was introduced, the .40's lesser accuracy was often attributed to a faster unlock of the barrel, etc. (caused by high pressure like the 9mm, but more power). If there's any truth to that idea, it would help explain why the MGSL improves accuracy more with the .40... more control of the lock-up system.

I received my MGSL last week. I have given up .40 & now shoot only .45acp & 9mm; because TR said .45's benefit more from a MGSL than 9mm's, I am going... for now... to test just the Glock 21 that I use for USPSA Limited-10. I did not see immediate results as some shooters have... the hits on the targets in the attached photos were some of the very first rounds fired with the MGSL. My G-21 has a Heinie Slant Pro rear sight & an Ameriglo 0.90" wide front sight. The only functional part changed was a factory 3.5# connector (stock barrel & springs). The gun is rather new, with less than 500 rounds through it. A photo of the gun is shown below, too.

I shot these at 21 yards with my wrists supported by a sand bag. I shot groups of 5 with Winchester white box ammo, then groups of 5 with my own loads. I made some prior shots with a Millen pistol rest, but the results were more erratic. All are 230gr FMJ... the handloads have Rainier plated bullets. All groups are 4" to 4.5" center to center of bullet holes.

I will test the accuracy again after a couple of matches... TR says to allow a 200 round break-in for best results.

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Old 09-04-2008, 14:54   #107
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I received my MGSL from Mr. Graham about two weeks ago. I ran through about 150 rnds of Fiocchi 180gr FJMFN in my G22 last night. I definitely noticed a tighter, more consistent grouping from 15 yards.

I tried the MGSL in my G34 and didn't notice as much of a difference. My G22 has more wear on it, and presumably is a bit more loose, as it is shot much more frequently. This may account for the marked improvement in this particular weapon.

DISCLAIMER: My results were obtained shooting from a two hand high point position. My groupings are usually pretty consistent, until I get tired that is. The last fifty rounds from the G22 were fired in 10 round strings as follows: 20 with MGSL, 20 w/out, 10 with MGSL. So far, my opinion is, it's not a remedy for crappy shooting or lack of practice. However, it will help tighten up your groupings and take them from decent to good.

I will conduct some benchrest testing in the future. There were no failures or weapon malfunctions of any kind with the MGSL.
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Old 09-04-2008, 18:33   #108
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Originally Posted by Noponer View Post
Shortly after the .40 S&W cartridge was introduced, the .40's lesser accuracy was often attributed to a faster unlock of the barrel, etc. (caused by high pressure like the 9mm, but more power). If there's any truth to that idea, it would help explain why the MGSL improves accuracy more with the .40... more control of the lock-up system.

I received my MGSL last week. I have given up .40 & now shoot only .45acp & 9mm; because TR said .45's benefit more from a MGSL than 9mm's, I am going... for now... to test just the Glock 21 that I use for USPSA Limited-10. I did not see immediate results as some shooters have... the hits on the targets in the attached photos were some of the very first rounds fired with the MGSL. My G-21 has a Heinie Slant Pro rear sight & an Ameriglo 0.90" wide front sight. The only functional part changed was a factory 3.5# connector (stock barrel & springs). The gun is rather new, with less than 500 rounds through it. A photo of the gun is shown below, too.

I shot these at 21 yards with my wrists supported by a sand bag. I shot groups of 5 with Winchester white box ammo, then groups of 5 with my own loads. I made some prior shots with a Millen pistol rest, but the results were more erratic. All are 230gr FMJ... the handloads have Rainier plated bullets. All groups are 4" to 4.5" center to center of bullet holes.

I will test the accuracy again after a couple of matches... TR says to allow a 200 round break-in for best results.
Size of the groups look about the same to me.
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Old 09-04-2008, 20:05   #109
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Size of the groups look about the same to me.
Actually, the hits with the MGSL are slightly larger, but too close to make a difference one way or the other.

This is just a report on my first shots with the MGSL - not pro or con. After another 100 round or so, the groups may get better... maybe not. The groups with the stock lock are OK with me at 20+ yards (64 ft.). Each gun reacts differently to the MGSL, everyone says, & some guns may not need help.

As for the post from dsmw5142 about his worn G-22... the most mileage I ever had on a Glock was another G-21. The only difference I saw in performance after all those rounds was an additional 50 fps.
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Old 09-04-2008, 20:15   #110
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Actually, the hits with the MGSL are slightly larger, but too close to make a difference one way or the other.

This is just a report on my first shots with the MGSL - not pro or con. After another 100 round or so, the groups may get better... maybe not. The groups with the stock lock are OK with me at 20+ yards (64 ft.). Each gun reacts differently to the MGSL, everyone says, & some guns may not need help.

As for the post from dsmw5142 about his worn G-22... the most mileage I ever had on a Glock was another G-21. The only difference I saw in performance after all those rounds was an additional 50 fps.
Your G21 gained 50 FPS over time?
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Old 09-04-2008, 21:07   #111
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Your G21 gained 50 FPS over time?
That's not uncommon with firearms, Gary. Rifles are prone to it. Townsend Whelen wrote about it years ago. Perhaps the pores in the steel become slicker with time.
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Old 09-04-2008, 21:56   #112
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<< Shortly after the .40 S&W cartridge was introduced, the .40's lesser accuracy was often attributed to a faster unlock of the barrel, etc. (caused by high pressure like the 9mm, but more power). If there's any truth to that idea, it would help explain why the MGSL improves accuracy more with the .40... more control of the lock-up system. >>

Also keep in mind that the .40 is a relatively "new" cartridge, (introduced in 1990) without the decades of load, chamber and barrel twist development that the 9mm (introduced in 1903) and .45 ACP (1905) have. .40 S&W was also somewhat "rushed" into production.

<< I received my MGSL last week. I have given up .40 & now shoot only .45acp & 9mm; because TR said .45's benefit more from a MGSL than 9mm's,...>>

In my testing I found 9mm to have the least accuracy enhancement and .40 S&W the most. All other calibers were somewhere in between.

<< I am going... for now... to test just the Glock 21 that I use for USPSA Limited-10. I did not see immediate results as some shooters have... the hits on the targets in the attached photos were some of the very first rounds fired with the MGSL. My G-21 has a Heinie Slant Pro rear sight & an Ameriglo 0.90" wide front sight. The only functional part changed was a factory 3.5# connector (stock barrel & springs). The gun is rather new, with less than 500 rounds through it. A photo of the gun is shown below, too. >>

Your pistol looks very nicely set up. I also noticed you also had a grip reduction done. Nice work.

<< I shot these at 21 yards with my wrists supported by a sand bag. I shot groups of 5 with Winchester white box ammo, then groups of 5 with my own loads. I made some prior shots with a Millen pistol rest, but the results were more erratic. All are 230gr FMJ... the handloads have Rainier plated bullets. All groups are 4" to 4.5" center to center of bullet holes. I will test the accuracy again after a couple of matches... TR says to allow a 200 round break-in for best results. >>

This is correct. Give both the pistol and the MGSL time to break-in to each other. I notice in your pictures that you tend to shoot slightly to the right - are you left handed by any chance?

Regards,
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Old 09-04-2008, 22:20   #113
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That's not uncommon with firearms, Gary. Rifles are prone to it. Townsend Whelen wrote about it years ago. Perhaps the pores in the steel become slicker with time.
True.

A new barrel is "rougher" and will give slightly lower velocities than a barrel that is broken in and "seasoned". As bullets pass though the bore, they tend to slowly polish and smooth away any roughness left over from manufacturing. Over time, the polishing action in the bore allows the projectiles to obtain slightly higher velocities. This continues until bullet/gas errosion starts to enlarge the bore diameter and begins to decrease velocities. However, this was much more noticable in rifles with older barrel steels - less so in handguns with their lower velocities and pressures.

For the same reason, new barrels are also typically not as accurate than one that is broken in.

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Old 09-05-2008, 09:16   #114
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TR...

"Your pistol looks very nicely set up. I also noticed you also had a grip reduction done. Nice work."

Thanks. I did the reduction. I run one-man shop called Highland Grip & Frame (FFL & all). I don't advertise a lot because I want to enjoy my retirement & not get loaded down. I reworked that G-21 in the last few days, reducing the finger groove humps & the circumference even more. I also undercut the trigger guard on the left side (already had it undercut on the right). The gun feels much better than a G-21SF & does not have the harder trigger pull they do (because the connector gets tilted back by the reduction made in hand web area on SF's). Below is a photo of the G-21 that I took today (MGSL installed).

"This is correct. Give both the pistol and the MGSL time to break-in to each other. I notice in your pictures that you tend to shoot slightly to the right - are you left handed by any chance?"

No, I am right handed. Since I tend to shoot left in the heat of competition, I keep the sights moved a little to the right. When I slow down & shoot correctly, the shots hit where they are supposed to. (I know, I know... that's not the way to do it! )

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Old 09-10-2008, 11:32   #115
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Gents,

Thank to all of you who have tried my MGSL in your pistols.

If anyone has any questions, I'd be happy to answer them.
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Old 09-10-2008, 17:54   #116
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T.R., I shot my new G39 today with your slide lock, however I was too busy chronographing to acid test for accuracy. The gun functioned perfectly. I did manange to hit a Dall ram at about 800 yds. with my G39 and your slide lock but since I don't have a license I cannot verify this with photos, hence you never read this.







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Old 09-11-2008, 19:41   #117
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T.R., I shot my new G39 today with your slide lock, however I was too busy chronographing to acid test for accuracy. The gun functioned perfectly. I did manange to hit a Dall ram at about 800 yds. with my G39 and your slide lock but since I don't have a license I cannot verify this with photos, hence you never read this.







Okaay.....

When you get done with the chrono testing, let us know what kind of groups you get at 800 yards......I did my testing at 25..........
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Old 09-23-2008, 08:08   #118
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These posts are most interesting, but from my knowledge of how the glock guns lock up, I do not see how this part will make a Glock gun more accurate. Maybe I am missing something. The test may be in the taste of the pudding. Does someone who is a pretty decent shooter, ok, a really good shooter, have actual targets with before and after results.

Maybe this MGSL should be sent to select guys who shoot Glocks in competition for testing, and they can post the results.
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Old 09-23-2008, 09:18   #119
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These posts are most interesting, but from my knowledge of how the glock guns lock up, I do not see how this part will make a Glock gun more accurate. Maybe I am missing something. The test may be in the taste of the pudding. Does someone who is a pretty decent shooter, ok, a really good shooter, have actual targets with before and after results.

Maybe this MGSL should be sent to select guys who shoot Glocks in competition for testing, and they can post the results.
Look through this string more carefully... there are photos of before & after targets. As for the shooters' skill - the small groups at 20 & 25 yards are not bad. Glocks are not sniper tools, they are pistols.

TR tested the part with a special Ransom rest. The MGSL did not help me much (before or after the break-in period of 200+ rounds), but TR explains that if you read all the comments above. There are plenty of comments about the Glock's lock-up, including my own doubts. But I tried one to see for myself; anyone can do the same. TR offers your money back if you are not satisified with the results.

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Old 09-25-2008, 16:41   #120
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I haven't been on very much lately, so I haven't had time to give my input. From my own personal experience (I am by no means a professional, just an avid 19 year old Glock shooter ), the MGSL did make a fairly big difference in my G22. I noticed my grouping was a LOT tighter than before. Granted I added a few other moddifications and there is a chance that durring the break in period, my grouping skills increased, I still believe the MGSL played a big role in that. In my opinion, it is money well worth spending...not that you're really breaking the bank. At my last range visit, 14 out of 15 rounds landed in the center area of a silloutte target at 25yds away with the last round trailing maybe an inch out. Very happy customer!
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Old 10-01-2008, 06:37   #121
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I bought one probably 4-5 yrs ago off TRG when he was in S/Indy:Greenwood.
I put it in my G37 that I was using as a bullseye gun.Using a Carver mount and a Ultradot it took my Groupsize from about 5" to about 3" at 50 yds.
I have them in all my Glocks-Look, the fact they make take-down easier is worth the price of admission.
Rikki, thanks for that post. Not that I'm gonna run out & buy one but with a Carver on (easier takedown) AND that kind of accuracy improvement out at 50yds, now you're talking something interesting. I shoot alot of 9, have thought of setting up my G21 for something like this, but always thought the G37 had the potential to make a phenomenal Bullseye gun. Dang! Just when I thought my G38 & 39 didn't need any kinfolk around...

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Old 10-01-2008, 14:30   #122
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Rikki, thanks for that post. Not that I'm gonna run out & buy one but with a Carver on (easier takedown) AND that kind of accuracy improvement out at 50yds, now you're talking something interesting. I shoot alot of 9, have thought of setting up my G21 for something like this, but always thought the G37 had the potential to make a phenomenal Bullseye gun. Dang! Just when I thought my G38 & 39 didn't need any kinfolk around...

WIG, ya know ya need a G37!

Edited to add: or maybe two!
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Old 12-28-2008, 21:14   #123
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nevermind..

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Old 05-06-2009, 17:14   #124
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I've read through all five pages of this subject and still have a question.
Being new to Glocks, I know I don't know much about their operation but why doesn't the MGSL make a difference on the G36?
I have my first Glock (G21sf) on order, and plan on buying one for this gun, but I also plan on getting a G36 in the near future and am wondering why it's not helpful for this model?

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Old 05-07-2009, 06:13   #125
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Will this part fit a G36 or does this gun use a different stop?
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