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Old 08-23-2013, 23:14   #1
Hondo341
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10 mm Hunting Load

I am searching for a hunting load. Been doing all sorts of searches for data and will continue to do so. This is what I have:
Glock 20sf with a 6" KKM Bbl, 24lb recoil spring on steel guiderod with buffer. Have it topped with a Vortex Razor 3moa red dot.

Have 200gr WFNGC Double Tap bullets and new Starline brass.

Applicable powders on hand are:
Power Pistol, Blue Dot, Titegroup, 231, 296, VV n340, L'il gun.

Looking for accuracy and power.......accuracy first.

Any help is much appreciated.
Mike

Last edited by Hondo341; 08-24-2013 at 01:08.. Reason: typo
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Old 08-24-2013, 12:17   #2
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My best loads for that bullet have been Accurate no. 9. Since that is not on the list, my "accuracy first" powder has consistently been Blue Dot for 10mm. That particular bullet tracks more closely to FMJs rather than standard cast lead. I would grab 2 or 3 different manuals for 200 gr FMJs and work up. Blue Dot does have a strong reputation for groups in 10mm Auto. Blue Dot pushed a bit burns very cleanly.

On another note. You might find that your Glock will run more reliably with the stock recoil spring assembly with hot and heavy loads. Sometimes the forward return velocity is too quick such that the next round is not lifted into place in time. The next round is collected on the side of the case, rather than on the head. Nose-up FTFeeds can happen. You don't need a buffer either, in my opinion. You are not going to trash your G20 with heavy 200 gr loads. It is a beast.

Last edited by Taterhead; 08-24-2013 at 12:18..
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Old 08-24-2013, 23:34   #3
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Thanks for the heads-up. Just what I was looking for.
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Old 08-25-2013, 10:20   #4
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800X= power and accuracy in my G-20......it just doesn't meter well, but I hand throw all of my charges. I've had better luck with the 22# recoil spring using full house loads and the extra power mag springs help alleviate any potential feed issues. The extra power recoil springs may not be necessary but they keep your brass from being flung into the next county. I also polished the ramp, breach face and chamber on my KKM. She runs 100% . I use 200 grn. XTP's for my hunting load@1,290 fps. You may also want to use recoil buffers at the range(take it out for hunting and "social" work) to avoid beating your frame all to hell as some 10MM folks have experienced. good luck

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Old 08-25-2013, 21:33   #5
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Blue Dot 10.5 grains would be my choice...
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Old 08-26-2013, 09:16   #6
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I love 8.2gr Longshot under a 200gr WFNGC.... depending on the manual you use, it might be over.... but its not a dangerous load at ALL in my experience.... They usually under load Longshot in manuals by quite a bit....
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Old 08-28-2013, 08:59   #7
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Blue Dot 10.5 grains would be my choice...
Yep. Unless you go powder shopping for others, that's it on your list. I use this load, and even higher with non-OEM barrels. I use a heavy spring and have fewer issues than with the OEM RSA. Load 'em up and use what works.
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Old 08-28-2013, 18:08   #8
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I have nothing to say about powders, but plenty to say about projectiles:

Depends on what you're trying to kill.

For self defense against bears I think the 200 & 220 grain flat points like Double Tap uses (the projectiles - not DT's slower-than-advertised ammo) are about as good as it gets for 10MM loads. If you are hunting something smaller, why would you want to have projectiles with 24 inches of penetration for an animal with a body only 9 inches thick? Why let most of the impact energy get carried away out the animals backside instead of using it to knock down the animal? If I was hunting white tails or javelina with my G20 I think I'd be more inclined to use the same relatively light solid copper hollow points that are sold for SD use against 2 legged animals - or maybe 165 grain Golden Sabers or Gold dots. (Our local poachers use .22LR for deer!!) For some of the medium sized & larger piggies we have around my neck of the woods, I'd choose the 180 or 200 grain JHP's designed for limited expansion. In all cases, hunting or SD, I'd be trying to make sure I choose a bullet capable of dumping all it's energy inside the intended target rather that waste it on the sort of over-penetration that's really only put to full use on a large bear.

But I can already hear the rebuttal from some of the heaviest-possible-bullet-because-it-sounds-macho crowd: "Two holes bleed faster than one" right? No, wrong... A fast moving bullet that tears a wide path of destruction and makes only one hole, can easily cause more tissue damage and bleeding than a bullet that makes two holes but tears a narrower, less-damaged path with far less internal bleeding, which is just as much a factor in quick kills as external bleeding is.

Those 200 grain flat points are great for what they are for, but they are not the bullet for ALL hunting, and certainly are not an HD/SD round for use against bad guys (for those who were wondering about SD ammo).
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Old 08-28-2013, 21:16   #9
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Brian.....great input.
This is not my self defense gun. My 27 or my duty G22 are SD guns. This is only for hunting. I like XTPs but they are hard to find right now. I do have a respect for LBT typed bullets too. We have some larger hogs here as well as deer. Since cast is easier to get right now that is what I am going with for this season. I am sure I will try XTPs in the future as well.
Mike
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Old 08-28-2013, 21:32   #10
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Flat points will out do any jhp when its super sonic. The wound channel through out will be far greater with a wide flat cast than any jacketed hollow point. I have shot a few deer now with both. It's not even close. The flat nose makes a larger channel all the way through the animal where the jhp has a small entery and rather short, ok size wound channel.

U have to super sonic with the flat nose to get the great wound channel.

A flat nose cast will leave a channel that u can stick a few fingers in both sides.

I will no longer shoot deer or bear with a jhp. Flat nose cast or the shallow hp cast mold that mihec made for our group buy on cast boolit forum. The shallow hp mold more or less allows it to flatten to around .45. And still drive all the way through. Deer shot with that boolit I could put 3 fingers sideways in the entry and exit. Deer dropped in its tracks.
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Old 08-28-2013, 21:37   #11
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As for a personal load data. Work up to this. I am at 9.7 gr 800x with a 200 gr shp cast. Out of my longslide it does right at 1400fps. Give or take depending on the day. Very consistent and accurate roundiI shoot it out to 100 yards.

This load is way over book. Work up. I personally have no pressure signs with it.

9.4 gr was another great shooter.
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Old 08-28-2013, 21:40   #12
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Awesome info ctious. I will feel well armed with my 200gr WFNGC while hunting. Will probably be using 10.5 blue dot.
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Old 08-28-2013, 22:06   #13
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Flat points will out do any jhp when its super sonic. The wound channel through out will be far greater with a wide flat cast than any jacketed hollow point. I have shot a few deer now with both. It's not even close. The flat nose makes a larger channel all the way through the animal where the jhp has a small entery and rather short, ok size wound channel.

U have to super sonic with the flat nose to get the great wound channel.

A flat nose cast will leave a channel that u can stick a few fingers in both sides.

I will no longer shoot deer or bear with a jhp. Flat nose cast or the shallow hp cast mold that mihec made for our group buy on cast boolit forum. The shallow hp mold more or less allows it to flatten to around .45. And still drive all the way through. Deer shot with that boolit I could put 3 fingers sideways in the entry and exit. Deer dropped in its tracks.
I don't hunt, but from my limited experience I would tend to agree. A big flat meplat with a sharp square shoulder is nasty. A contact down south shot a 250 pound wild pig with one of my hand loaded WFNGC 200 gr hardcast bullets (1205 fps). The photos showed nasty destruction all the way through the animal. It blew out both sides of the rib cage with a nasty exit wound and a big entrance.

I have compared non-scientific effects vs. 200 JHPs (same velocities), and it is not even close. Water jugs get blasted, and it keeps going through 8 or more gallons. A JHP will have a somewhat big splash in the 1st & 2nd jug and stop in the 3rd or 4th. The WFNGC destroys jugs 1 & 2. 3 is in bad shape too. The first jug lands several feet away. Shots through denim, wood, then water, same story. The XTP has a smallish hole in wood and so-so splash through water. The WFNGC puts a big hole in wood and blows up water jugs. Ditto wet print.

I know, I know, "the next time I need to hunt a flock of water jugs..."

I think what is going on is that the sharp shoulder cuts a clean hole. It tracks straight, so velocities remain high throughout. A JHP loses a lot of velocity early when mushrooming. Yes a JHP is "dumping energy" but energy dump is not a measure of wounding. Otherwise knife stabs would be harmless (low energy dump), and football tackles would be deadly (very high energy dump).

The flat face must also have some effect of hydraulically scouring its way through as moisture is displaced squarely out of its way laterally. You can see this when holding a WFNGC under a small stream of water. With a mushroomed JHP, water flows around the shape. The WFNGC causes water to splash sideways 90 degrees. I would gues that fluids that are pushed sideways out of the way of a 1200 fps projectile would be harmful to the surrounding tissue. I don't know for sure. Yondering posted a great photo of a WFNGC bullet under a stream of water a while back. I'll see if I can find it.

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Old 08-28-2013, 22:10   #14
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That sounds reasonable to me. A wide meplat hits hard.
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Old 08-29-2013, 08:25   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctious View Post
Flat points will out do any jhp when its super sonic. The wound channel through out will be far greater with a wide flat cast than any jacketed hollow point. I have shot a few deer now with both. It's not even close. The flat nose makes a larger channel all the way through the animal where the jhp has a small entery and rather short, ok size wound channel.

Yep......^^^this

Energy "dump" isn't a factor with handgun ammo, nor is hydraulic "shock" as you might see in a high powered rifle round. Penetration is king and wide-nosed cast bullets tear gaping holes in animals.
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Old 08-30-2013, 01:47   #16
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I have loaded up 20 test rounds of 9.7gr of Blue Dot at OAL 1.25 under 200gr WFNGC Double Taps. After the weekend(work) I plan to give these a try.
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Old 09-26-2013, 00:47   #17
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Nice

Those test bullets flew great. So I just loaded 150 rounds with the same 200ghr WFNGC with 10.5 gr Blue Dot. I think I will be good to go for hunting when I get to sight them in next week.
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Old 09-26-2013, 16:13   #18
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I don't hunt, but from my limited experience I would tend to agree. A big flat meplat with a sharp square shoulder is nasty. A contact down south shot a 250 pound wild pig with one of my hand loaded WFNGC 200 gr hardcast bullets (1205 fps). The photos showed nasty destruction all the way through the animal. It blew out both sides of the rib cage with a nasty exit wound and a big entrance.

I have compared non-scientific effects vs. 200 JHPs (same velocities), and it is not even close. Water jugs get blasted, and it keeps going through 8 or more gallons. A JHP will have a somewhat big splash in the 1st & 2nd jug and stop in the 3rd or 4th. The WFNGC destroys jugs 1 & 2. 3 is in bad shape too. The first jug lands several feet away. Shots through denim, wood, then water, same story. The XTP has a smallish hole in wood and so-so splash through water. The WFNGC puts a big hole in wood and blows up water jugs. Ditto wet print.

I know, I know, "the next time I need to hunt a flock of water jugs..."

I think what is going on is that the sharp shoulder cuts a clean hole. It tracks straight, so velocities remain high throughout. A JHP loses a lot of velocity early when mushrooming. Yes a JHP is "dumping energy" but energy dump is not a measure of wounding. Otherwise knife stabs would be harmless (low energy dump), and football tackles would be deadly (very high energy dump).

The flat face must also have some effect of hydraulically scouring its way through as moisture is displaced squarely out of its way laterally. You can see this when holding a WFNGC under a small stream of water. With a mushroomed JHP, water flows around the shape. The WFNGC causes water to splash sideways 90 degrees. I would gues that fluids that are pushed sideways out of the way of a 1200 fps projectile would be harmful to the surrounding tissue. I don't know for sure. Yondering posted a great photo of a WFNGC bullet under a stream of water a while back. I'll see if I can find it.
A Keith SWC hard cast in 44 Magnum is truly a nasty round. A large sharp Metplat is hard to beat for creating damage to a target
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Old 09-26-2013, 19:15   #19
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Those test bullets flew great. So I just loaded 150 rounds with the same 200ghr WFNGC with 10.5 gr Blue Dot. I think I will be good to go for hunting when I get to sight them in next week.
Glad to hear that they are working out. Did you get them on the chronograph, by chance?

10.5 grains is a pretty big jump for a load that is getting warm. Did you test any loads between that and 9.7 grains by chance?
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Old 09-26-2013, 20:33   #20
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I did not chrono. The 10.5 BD load has been suggested form several people that have found it to be the best load. That sounds reasonable. The 9.7 was not snappy at all.
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Old 09-27-2013, 19:35   #21
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I did not chrono. The 10.5 BD load has been suggested form several people that have found it to be the best load. That sounds reasonable. The 9.7 was not snappy at all.
The one and only time I did a workup with some big jumps (6 tenths), I came as close to a blowout as I ever have. The scary thing was that it was a book load, and one that has been loaded by a number of people in this forum. I won't make that mistake again. Hence, the cautionary tone of my note here.

Snap (recoil) is not an indication of pressure, and pressure was the main concern in my question. That plus function and accuracy in your gun. The 10.5 grain load was tested in their firearms, using their components, their unique batches of powder, and so forth. You mileage might vary.

An 8/10s jump in a pistol cartridge is a bit of a leap of faith - both for pressure, and for precision.

An 8% jump in charge weight which will likely result in an increase in pressure of much greater than 8% due to the pressure curve getting steeper. It would be adviseable to load a few "in-between" batches @ 9.9, 10.1, 10.3. If you can beg, borrow, or steal a chrono it will tell you a lot about what is going on with your load too. You might find that your gun groups brilliantly at, say, 10.1 grains, but it likely won't kill a deer any less dead than 10.5. Or maybe not.



Stay safe!
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Old 09-27-2013, 20:49   #22
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The one and only time I did a workup with some big jumps (6 tenths), I came as close to a blowout as I ever have. The scary thing was that it was a book load, and one that has been loaded by a number of people in this forum. I won't make that mistake again. Hence, the cautionary tone of my note here.

Snap (recoil) is not an indication of pressure, and pressure was the main concern in my question. That plus function and accuracy in your gun. The 10.5 grain load was tested in their firearms, using their components, their unique batches of powder, and so forth. You mileage might vary.

An 8/10s jump in a pistol cartridge is a bit of a leap of faith - both for pressure, and for precision.

An 8% jump in charge weight which will likely result in an increase in pressure of much greater than 8% due to the pressure curve getting steeper. It would be adviseable to load a few "in-between" batches @ 9.9, 10.1, 10.3. If you can beg, borrow, or steal a chrono it will tell you a lot about what is going on with your load too. You might find that your gun groups brilliantly at, say, 10.1 grains, but it likely won't kill a deer any less dead than 10.5. Or maybe not.



Stay safe!

What load almost blew u out?
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Old 09-27-2013, 20:53   #23
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Yea, Tater, I'm kinda curious, too
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Old 09-27-2013, 23:06   #24
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What load almost blew u out?
You'll be surprised at this because is far below what you've shot. This was 800-X under a 180XTP with a WLP primer. I was following Hornady's book data. I did not even get to max. By the way, Hornady's loads are far hotter than those from Hodgdon (IMR).

I painstakingly hand weigh warm/hot ammo and verify with check weights. I pulled those loads and re-verified charge weights. Spot on.

The brass was badly bulged and smiled. You could see that it was about to let go. Primers looked like they were spackled in with a putty knife -- FLAT! Not quite as bad as the imfamous stickied high-pressure load thread from Burien, but enough to get my attention.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1332131

What I learned from this is that there are a lot of variables, and things run differently based upon the sum-total (and sometimes exponential effect) of the variables. Careful load workups are part of the deal. That was one time that I deviated from my normal due care, and Murphy almost had his way.

When I went back and more carefully looked at the previous string, brass was "getting there" already. I just did not look that closely 'cause I, frankly, did not expect there to be problems (below max, other shooters have done it, yadda yadda). Sloppy.

I could be convinced that the lot of powder that I had might have been an outlier. I think that is the most likely explanation.
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Old 09-28-2013, 06:04   #25
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Point taken. Thanks for the heads-up.
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