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Old 04-19-2015, 09:40   #1
Dave Lively
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Would a tactical shotgun be a liability in court?

At what point do you think the potential legal problems from owning a "scary looking" shotgun outweigh the tactical advantages? I am talking about something owned for home defense, not a range gun or something used by the police. It seems to me the full blown tactical shotguns would cause the same sort of problems in court that an AR rifle would. Appearance does matter.

I currently have a Remington 870 Express with a 26" barrel and skeet choke I use for HD and nothing else. I am considering replacing it with something that holds more than 4 rounds in the magazine and is easier to maneuver. Rather than get one of the full blown tactical models with a pistol grip, unconventional stock, muzzle attachments for shooting off locks, rails, etc. I am looking at something like the 870 synthetic express instead of the tactical models. It holds 6 in the magazine, has a short barrel (which is not interchangeable with other 870 barrels), conventional appearance is costs less than the tactical models. That seems to be the sweet spot to me. I also considered buying a short barrel and magazine extension for my current gun but it looks like it would be easier and no more expensive to replace it.
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Old 04-19-2015, 09:49   #2
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As long as it's legal and stock, shouldn't be much of a problem.

Check out the Harrington & Richardson Pardner Pump. It's an 870 clone for less than $200. Remove the magazine plug and it will hold 5 in the magazine and one (optional) in the chamber. Fitted for 2 3/4 or 3" shells. 18.5" barrel so it's legal.
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Old 04-19-2015, 12:44   #3
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Got a little bored with my shelf model Moss 500 w/ 18.5 in bbl. Shopped up some tactical stock, forend, sling, sidesaddle. All in tactical black. Swapped hardware/stock, and after a year... bored again, same color in plastic.

Saw a You Tube how to "camo paint a rifle", so disassembled and painted a sand tan-desert background. Found some Jungle Tiger Stripe templates, added some brown, OD green, black tiger stripe vs the sand base. Didn't paint the actual gun action or barrel, left factory blued. Now an owner of Desert/Tiger Stripe finish Moss 500.

For a "Home defense/trunk gun, and couple woods trips a year", can't see any more liability to the finish vs the lethal use if needed. It's what you do with it that counts.

Add: Still have the original furniture so a swap out could be done if wanted again. Who knows when?
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Old 04-19-2015, 13:58   #4
M2 Carbine
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Quote:
liability in court?
Personally I think all this,
what ammo you use or using reloads,
making minor changes to the gun,
what (legal) gun you use,
etc, etc,
is nothing but internet and gun magazine boogie men fostered by gun magazine writers.

A good (legal) shoot is a good shoot.
Using a illegal gun, of course, might bite you in the butt.

I've never heard a good (legal) shooting changed to a bad (illegal) shooting because of the (legal) gun the shooter used to protect themselves.


For defense I want the baddest gun that will do the job. I don't care what they look like.

Tactical Shotguns


Quote:
I am considering replacing it with something that holds more than 4 rounds in the magazine and is easier to maneuver
Yeah, I don't want to be bothered reloading.

Tactical Shotguns


25 yards.
Tactical Shotguns

Last edited by M2 Carbine; 04-19-2015 at 14:07..
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Old 04-19-2015, 14:39   #5
aippi
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No one can read the mind of a Jury. So the answer is a definite maybe. In a totally righteous shooting it is never getting to a criminal court but as soon as the perps babies momma contacts an attorney then they go after your home owners insurance if nothing else. Again, if it is a righteous shooting that should never get to court as the Insurance company will hold them off a couple years then dangle some change in their face to settle a nuisance suit.

The problem comes in when the shooting is in question and DA's can be moved by most anything if they are looking to make political points. Let tensions already be high in your area and the age and race of the perp can come into play and you find yourself facing a jury worried about the outcome of their decision more the in ensuring justice is done.

The left is trying to make gun owners appear on the same level as wife beaters, smokers, baby seal killers and other low life's. Using some of the guns that to many people think are cool adds fuel to their tiny little fire they are trying to flare up.

The fact you even asked the question should give you cause to find validity in it based on the right circumstances. So again the answer is definitely maybe.
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Old 04-19-2015, 15:15   #6
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but as soon as the perps babies momma contacts an attorney then they go after your home owners insurance if nothing else. Again, if it is a righteous shooting that should never get to court as the Insurance company will hold them off a couple years then dangle some change in their face to settle a nuisance suit.
This Texas law should be nation wide.
Your "good boy" gets killed doing the crime, that's tough, you can't sue.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/communit...ur-3507040.php

Quote:
Finally, Texas law offers anyone who uses force authorized by law some additional protection from civil lawsuits that could be filed by injured criminal attackers or their families.

The law provides the crime victim immunity from civil liability from lawsuits brought by the intruder or attacker for personal injury or death that results from the lawful use of force.

Our state law affirms the rights of law-abiding Texans and puts the law on their side when they respond with force to an attack.
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Old 04-19-2015, 15:50   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Lively View Post
At what point do you think the potential legal problems from owning a "scary looking" shotgun outweigh the tactical advantages? I am talking about something owned for home defense, not a range gun or something used by the police. It seems to me the full blown tactical shotguns would cause the same sort of problems in court that an AR rifle would. Appearance does matter.

I currently have a Remington 870 Express with a 26" barrel and skeet choke I use for HD and nothing else. I am considering replacing it with something that holds more than 4 rounds in the magazine and is easier to maneuver. Rather than get one of the full blown tactical models with a pistol grip, unconventional stock, muzzle attachments for shooting off locks, rails, etc. I am looking at something like the 870 synthetic express instead of the tactical models. It holds 6 in the magazine, has a short barrel (which is not interchangeable with other 870 barrels), conventional appearance is costs less than the tactical models. That seems to be the sweet spot to me. I also considered buying a short barrel and magazine extension for my current gun but it looks like it would be easier and no more expensive to replace it.
I'd have to figure out even one "tactical advantage" of a "scary looking" shotgun to answer.
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Old 04-19-2015, 16:03   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M2 Carbine View Post
Personally I think all this,
what ammo you use or using reloads,
making minor changes to the gun,
what (legal) gun you use,
etc, etc,
is nothing but internet and gun magazine boogie men fostered by gun magazine writers.

A good (legal) shoot is a good shoot.
Using a illegal gun, of course, might bite you in the butt.

I've never heard a good (legal) shooting changed to a bad (illegal) shooting because of the (legal) gun the shooter used to protect themselves.


For defense I want the baddest gun that will do the job. I don't care what they look like.

Tactical Shotguns



Yeah, I don't want to be bothered reloading.

Tactical Shotguns


25 yards.
Tactical Shotguns
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Old 04-19-2015, 17:13   #9
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Old 04-19-2015, 20:19   #10
Dave Lively
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Originally Posted by Bren View Post
I'd have to figure out even one "tactical advantage" of a "scary looking" shotgun to answer.
They often have either a ghost ring or even a red dot sight that would be easier to see inside a dim house. The extra capacity of something like what M2 carbine posted would be nice but in addition to any liability concerns they expensive too. But in general I agree. I am going to stick with either a conventional looking 870 or maybe a 870 copy.

Last edited by Dave Lively; 04-19-2015 at 20:58..
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Old 04-19-2015, 20:57   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M2 Carbine View Post
Personally I think all this,
what ammo you use or using reloads,
making minor changes to the gun,
what (legal) gun you use,
etc, etc,
is nothing but internet and gun magazine boogie men fostered by gun magazine writers.
I disagree.

About 15 years ago my stepson tried to impress some guys he met at the mall by telling them about my guns and took them to my house while I was at work. He also told them that except for the couple of weeks a year he was there I live alone. After my stepson went back to Arkansas they burglarized my house but could not open my gun safe.

A week later someone came to my door at 9:00 PM claiming to be a pizza delivery man trying to sell a pizza for half off because nobody was home at the house that ordered it. Looking through the peephole I saw a kid holding a pizza box. He really wanted me to open the door. I cannot prove he was trying to rob me but assuming he was what would have happened if he took it one step further and kicked in the door and I had to shoot or get robbed? He was likely someone my son had known, not a total stranger. He was black, I am white. He looked like an 18 year old kid, I was a well armed 40 year old man. There were a lot of things that could have gone wrong in court.

That was the closest I every may have come to an armed confrontation. But it was not nearly as clear cut as I had imagined. After that I started paying more attention to warnings about what looks bad in court.

BTW, that is a cool looking shotgun. If they were not so expensive I might buy one just to shoot at the range.
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Old 04-20-2015, 00:11   #12
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Originally Posted by Dave Lively View Post
I disagree.

About 15 years ago my stepson tried to impress some guys he met at the mall by telling them about my guns and took them to my house while I was at work. He also told them that except for the couple of weeks a year he was there I live alone. After my stepson went back to Arkansas they burglarized my house but could not open my gun safe.

A week later someone came to my door at 9:00 PM claiming to be a pizza delivery man trying to sell a pizza for half off because nobody was home at the house that ordered it. Looking through the peephole I saw a kid holding a pizza box. He really wanted me to open the door. I cannot prove he was trying to rob me but assuming he was what would have happened if he took it one step further and kicked in the door and I had to shoot or get robbed? He was likely someone my son had known, not a total stranger. He was black, I am white. He looked like an 18 year old kid, I was a well armed 40 year old man. There were a lot of things that could have gone wrong in court.

That was the closest I every may have come to an armed confrontation. But it was not nearly as clear cut as I had imagined. After that I started paying more attention to warnings about what looks bad in court.

BTW, that is a cool looking shotgun. If they were not so expensive I might buy one just to shoot at the range.
What do you mean "it wasn't clear cut"? If he had kicked in your door and tried robbing you it couldn't be more clear cut.
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Old 04-20-2015, 00:14   #13
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Aside from the few oddballs like M2 showed, most "tactical" shotguns are field models with short barrels and long magazines. How is adding a short barrel and magazine extension to your 870 more or less tactical than buying one?
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Old 04-20-2015, 01:04   #14
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Originally Posted by Dave Lively View Post
I disagree.

About 15 years ago my stepson tried to impress some guys he met at the mall by telling them about my guns and took them to my house while I was at work. He also told them that except for the couple of weeks a year he was there I live alone. After my stepson went back to Arkansas they burglarized my house but could not open my gun safe.

A week later someone came to my door at 9:00 PM claiming to be a pizza delivery man trying to sell a pizza for half off because nobody was home at the house that ordered it. Looking through the peephole I saw a kid holding a pizza box. He really wanted me to open the door. I cannot prove he was trying to rob me but assuming he was what would have happened if he took it one step further and kicked in the door and I had to shoot or get robbed? He was likely someone my son had known, not a total stranger. He was black, I am white. He looked like an 18 year old kid, I was a well armed 40 year old man. There were a lot of things that could have gone wrong in court.

That was the closest I every may have come to an armed confrontation. But it was not nearly as clear cut as I had imagined. After that I started paying more attention to warnings about what looks bad in court.

BTW, that is a cool looking shotgun. If they were not so expensive I might buy one just to shoot at the range.

Any chance at all that the black kid had a pizza in the box? How close were you to an armed confrontation? Do you think that the pizza guy gives a damn what your shotgun looks like when he is looking at the business end? IMHO go with the MAGPUL furniture, it will look better on the evening news.
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Old 04-20-2015, 05:48   #15
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Originally Posted by ronin.45 View Post
Aside from the few oddballs like M2 showed, most "tactical" shotguns are field models with short barrels and long magazines. How is adding a short barrel and magazine extension to your 870 more or less tactical than buying one?
I was referring to the ones with pistol grips, rail systems, flash suppressors, etc. What you are describing is what I am planning to buy.
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Old 04-20-2015, 05:53   #16
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How close were you to an armed confrontation?
There is no way of knowing what was in the box, it could have very well been a pizza. But going door to door selling pizzas at 9:00 PM is more than a little odd. If anything had happened a double barrel shotgun would probably have been enough but I still want something that holds more rounds.

Last edited by Dave Lively; 04-20-2015 at 05:54..
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Old 04-20-2015, 08:31   #17
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If anything had happened a double barrel shotgun would probably have been enough but I still want something that holds more rounds.
More rounds is definitely better.

I have a "tactical", double barrel 12 ga Mossberg Maverick. I bought it just because I thought it's a mean looking SOB.

But it is in the back of the closet (loaded).
Two hot 00 Buckshot shells are bad, especially in a laser/light equipped 12 ga but not as big a confidence builder as a 7 shot pump

Tactical Shotguns

Tactical Shotguns

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Old 04-20-2015, 09:34   #18
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Originally Posted by Dave Lively View Post
They often have either a ghost ring or even a red dot sight that would be easier to see inside a dim house. The extra capacity of something like what M2 carbine posted would be nice but in addition to any liability concerns they expensive too. But in general I agree. I am going to stick with either a conventional looking 870 or maybe a 870 copy.
Any 870 can have a ghost ring or red dot sight. That would be great for a police patrol gun, but would be a complete waste of space on a home defense gun, unless I live on a ranch or open rural setting (then I probably want a rifle). At home defense distances, I don't need sights, much less a laser or a red dot scope to slow me down.

I can put more than enough rounds in any 870 with the magazine extended to the end of the barrel.

The only shotgun I would choose for home defense is a stock, off the shelf, 870, with a bead sight and a magazine extension equal to barrel length.

If I really wanted to change something, the only practical addition would be a light, and the only light I would be interested in is a surefire forend, unless somebody new is making one.

As for the KSG, the only serious advantage I see for a home defense gun is the length.
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Old 04-20-2015, 10:38   #19
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unless I live on a ranch or open rural setting (then I probably want a rifle).
My HD distance is out to 35 yards, and further. (notice the laser dot on the door )

Tactical Shotguns

Although I have a number of shotguns (and handguns) equipped with Red Dot sights and Streamlight TLR-2 laser/lights, my go to gun, given a choice, is the Red Dot, laser/light equipped AR.

Although all the guns are set up for bright daylight or total darkness, at some distance there's a chance of some Buckshot spreading out enough to miss the target.

I don't have a lot of neighbors but some are within Buckshot range. I don't want a 12 ga slug or one or two 00 Buckshot going through their window.

There's also always the chance of missing with the AR to, but that's one reason I practice daylight Red Dot and low light laser/light shooting.


Tactical Shotguns


Quote:
As for the KSG, the only serious advantage I see for a home defense gun is the length.
And they will do anything any other "tactical" (I hate that word) shotgun will do, while carrying over twice the number of shells.
And the load can be mixed, such as slugs in one tube and Buckshot in the other. Being selectable with a flip of a switch.

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Old 04-20-2015, 10:52   #20
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Would a tactical shotgun be a liability in court?

I dunno, I never took a shotgun into a courthouse.

I like to tune my trombone shotty to be as loud as possible when I rack the action, that noise alone is said to make the criminals flee in fear.

But then I grab my Grandpa's old double barrel, to give them a sporting chance, because that might amuse a jury.

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