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Old 11-22-2008, 10:02   #26
Colorado4Wheel
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Originally Posted by bennwj View Post
Colorado,

You are wrong. I suggest a trip to the IRS website and you can download spreadsheets showing WHO pays WHAT in taxes.
So you are OK with the hedge fund manager making Billions paying less then 15%. You are OK with them having their wedding in France and renting a palace to do it? This is personal wealth. Not business wealth.
How about this. You are OK with companies getting huge tax breaks and then as a reward sending the majority of jobs overseas? That has happened to my father in laws companies over and over again. He is lucky to have a job because of it.

I understand economics. I don't need a "Lesson" I understand that higher taxes get passed along in higher cost. I am talking about people's personal wealth not being taxed simply because they have the ears of the politicians. It's very simple, our country in many ways is a "Democracy of the Few" not the many. It's time for some of that to change.
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Old 11-22-2008, 10:25   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel View Post
So you are OK with the hedge fund manager making Billions paying less then 15%. You are OK with them having their wedding in France and renting a palace to do it? This is personal wealth. Not business wealth.
How about this. You are OK with companies getting huge tax breaks and then as a reward sending the majority of jobs overseas? That has happened to my father in laws companies over and over again. He is lucky to have a job because of it.

I understand economics. I don't need a "Lesson" I understand that higher taxes get passed along in higher cost. I am talking about people's personal wealth not being taxed simply because they have the ears of the politicians. It's very simple, our country in many ways is a "Democracy of the Few" not the many. It's time for some of that to change.
Yes, you do need a lesson in economics. If you understood the issue you would realize that the main reason U.S. companies go overseas is NOT because they can pay cheaper salaries. It is because they pay outrageous taxes here. Also, some of our businesses going overseas is a good thing.

Take the textile industry for example. It is nearly dead here in this country. Those jobs are fairly low skill ones and by exporting those jobs to other countries, THOSE countries and people now have income that they can use to buy AMERICAN products. We could easily move every manufacturing job back to the United states, but where would be sell our products?

Fund managers, CEOs, CFOs and other executives actually have jobs that produce wealth. Unless you are a business owner (and I doubt you are based on the way you see the tax system) you have never produced any wealth. Things you buy with the money you earn support the economy, but you are not responsible for growing the economy.

The government does not have any money, nor do they produce wealth. The free market produces wealth.

I could care less where anybody has their wedding.

I could also care less about any kind of "golden parachute" that CEOs get. The board of that company (the shareholders) determine his or her compensation package when they hire a new CEO. Why should government get involved? Do you really believe that class warfare is good?

Why should we punish people for becoming successful (wealthy)? My sister and brother-in-law paid three times more than what I earn in a year in taxes last year. He was in the Marine Corps, went to Cornell University and got a degree in Civil Engineering. He then went on to get a MBA from Duke. He did this while my sister cleaned banks at night, while raising their daughter. He is successfull because of things he did. Are you saying his wealth should be taxed at a higer rate because he was successful and achieved the American dream? Do you think he should give that money that he risked to (his money by the way) to start a company and give it to lazy people who think they are entitled to something for doing nothing? Should his money be handed out to welfare recipients, crack whores and drunk bums on the street, because he actually went out and became successful and they did not?

If you think that way, just send ME 15% of your paycheck. Or more if you feel guilty for any success you may have.

He went on to start a company and he employs a couple of hundred people. If his taxes go up (all those taxes you think that he isn't paying) he will have to get rid of some workers.

I am absolutely fine with ANYBODY only paying 15% in taxes. We do not need higher taxes we need fiscal responsibility at the federal, state and local government level. Politicians need to be reminded that they have OUR MONEY...it does not belong to them.

Obama got elected on two things: 1. Lying about the war in Iraq and 2. Playing class warfare; pitting ignorant people who THINK they pay higer taxes against people who actually do.
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Old 11-22-2008, 10:31   #28
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You don't read what I say. But apparently you are fine with people making Billions paying a smaller %. I am not. We disagree.
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Old 11-22-2008, 10:33   #29
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Originally Posted by bennwj View Post
Unless you are a business owner (and I doubt you are based on the way you see the tax system)

Again, You don't read what I say. I am currently a S-Corp. I have worked in another S-Corp and mangaged 50 people. After that I started another business and had about 8 employees also as a S-Corp.

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Originally Posted by bennwj View Post
Are you saying his wealth should be taxed at a higer rate because he was successful and achieved the American dream? .
Never said they should be taxed at a higher rate. I would be happy if they were taxed at the same rate as me. If you had read what I said you would know that I just don't want them paying less then I am as a %.
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Old 11-22-2008, 10:55   #30
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Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel View Post
You don't read what I say. But apparently you are fine with people making Billions paying a smaller %. I am not. We disagree.
I did read what you say, but it does not make any sense. People with money create wealth. Period. Take away any of that wealth and the economy (at the macro level) suffers.

Look at socialist european countries where they not only tax income but wealth and extremely high rates...near 60% in France last time I checked. Do they have flourishing econimies? No. They were in the ****ter a long time ago.

Look at Ireland. 11% tax on business, individuals..everything. The lowest tax rate in the world and the strongest economy in eurpope. Companies are flocking to Ireland to do business.

I did not like McCain. He is not a conservative. I HATE Obama...he is a liberal/socialist. The choice was not a pleasant one, but it was easy to vote for McCain. Hell, if a hunk of dog **** was running against any democrat I would vote for the ****. At least I would know what I was getting into.

The current fiscal crisis was not caused by businesses on wall street. Democrats (CLinton revived the program) DEMANDED that home loans be given to minorities who could not qualify for a loan normally. Fannie May and Freddie Mac are government Sponsored enterprises. Fannie and Freddie gave these loans and then sold the loans to commercial banks for a profit. Because they were buying loand from Fannnie and Freddie (GSE's) they assumed the loand were good. They did not take into account all of the democrats (the head of Obama's V.P. search committe for example) who cooked the books. These banks then used those loans for collateral on other loans etc. Again, nothing illegal was done by any of the commercial banks.

Now, going on a pheasant hunt in Scotland while you are begging the govt for a bailout is stupid as was the spa vacation, but it was not illegal and the money they spent was not the govt money and it dod not add up to a drop in the bucket anyway.

Fannie and Freddie were cooking the books and DEMOCRATS like Barney Frank knew it and did nothing. McCain and President Bush tried to get the sub-prime fiasco fixed as far back as 2003 or so, but the DEMOCRATS who wer in power in the COngress stopped it.

Instead of telling the truth, these democrats blamed the problem on "Wall Street Fat Cats" and thus began another round of class warfare.

Did you know that in 16% of the homes in forclosure that had sub-prime loans, the "homeowner" never even made the first payment? Is that the fault of government or the "evil rich".

I did not mean to be insulting when I told you that you needed to learn about economics, but I feel you are reacting on emotion and not fact. Facts are a *****. They are what they are.

You and 52 million other voters were duped to believe in a lie.

I NEVER take anything I read or hear on the news at face value.

Just like my Exxon-Mobil example I gave you. All of that information is available on the internet from places like irs.gov or yahoo! finance.


I decided Obama's view of taxes was pure B.S. from the IRS site.

And if you think he is not going to come after your guns you are living in a fantasy world. I am not like some on this forum who think he is going to ban all guns, but he is certainly going to try to infringe on our rights.

I hope to stary my own business when I retire form the Army in a couple of years and I certainly do not want my hard earned money going to others who could have been just as successful as I hope to be.

Now we have democrats mad that the big three auto makers CEOs had the balls to fly to D.C. on corporate jets instead of flying commercially. Big deal. They own or lease the jet already. Having it sit there and not fly while PAYING for a commercial ticket is a waste of money. And the fact that the criticism came from people who can fly back and forth to their districts on TAXPAYER DOLLARS is in and of itself indicitive of the hypocrasy that is the democrat party.
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Old 11-22-2008, 10:56   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel View Post
Again, You don't read what I say. I am currently a S-Corp. I have worked in another S-Corp and mangaged 50 people. After that I started another business and had about 8 employees also as a S-Corp.



Never said they should be taxed at a higher rate. I would be happy if they were taxed at the same rate as me. If you had read what I said you would know that I just don't want them paying less then I am as a %.

Got it. You are a proponent of class warfare.
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Old 11-22-2008, 11:18   #32
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Originally Posted by Dandapani View Post
Why should they pay MORE? No one should have to pay more taxes. The government should get by with less. We spend our money better than the government could ever. Look what happened when Paulson was given a $700 blank check. Even he can't figure out how best to spend it.

You socialist are SO good and thinking how best to spend other people's money, and then you screw things up. Stay off my back and keep you hands off of my wallet.
If you make more moeny in this nation, then you owe it to the nation that afforded you the chance to make that money, to pay a little more in taxes... its just fairness. it is NOT fair for people who barely make it to pay more taxes in ratio to their income than the rich capitalists do that explicitly ABUSE and EXPLOIT the labour of the working class
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Old 11-22-2008, 12:15   #33
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Originally Posted by meshmdz View Post
If you make more moeny in this nation, then you owe it to the nation that afforded you the chance to make that money, to pay a little more in taxes... its just fairness. it is NOT fair for people who barely make it to pay more taxes in ratio to their income than the rich capitalists do that explicitly ABUSE and EXPLOIT the labour of the working class
meshmdz,

Those people who "barely make it" as you so unknowingly opine, DON'T PAY ANY TAXES. Period.

NOBODY IN THIS COUNTRY PAYS TAXES UNTIL THEY MAKE AROUND $60,000. Look it up. go to www.irs.gov and see for yourself.

"rich capitalist" are the reason you have everything you have and are the person you are. Unless you were home schooled in a community with the barter system.

We owe everything we have in this country to capitalists. They start businesses, hire people, produce goods and services for others and CREATE wealth.

If you want to give your money away to people either too lazy or too stupid to make themselves successful, give it to charity or continue to vote for democrats. If you just give it away, it does not effect me. Having liberals in office does.

I firmly believe that you have to TRY to fail in this country.

All of this talk of "fairness" makes me think of a Hillary Clinton speech.

When you said, "explicitly ABUSE and EXPLOIT the labour of the working class" it makes me think you just put down a copy of Marx. The "working class" is not exploited. They work and are paid. If they are exploited at all it is by politicians and other idiots who play class warfare.

Your ignorance and liberalism is to be expected. I see in your profile you are the young ROTC cadet who just got an active duty commission.

A few years in the real world, away from professors, who have obviously done an excellent job indoctrinating you in the "evils" of capitalism and the massing of wealth, will do wonders for your mind. Hopefully.

Wait until you make CPT (and are at the level where you pay taxes) and finally see your tax dollars going to social welfare programs.
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Old 11-22-2008, 12:20   #34
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Originally Posted by meshmdz View Post
If you make more moeny in this nation, then you owe it to the nation that afforded you the chance to make that money, to pay a little more in taxes... its just fairness. it is NOT fair for people who barely make it to pay more taxes in ratio to their income than the rich capitalists do that explicitly ABUSE and EXPLOIT the labour of the working class
Oh, I forgot one thing.

You seem so keen on Obama. Do you happen to know his plans for the military, cadet? Didn't think so.

I read your site and I actually don't know anybody who is angry that a black man was elected as President. Most of us are pissed because he is a socialist. Besides. He isn't black. He didn't grow up with the "typical black experience" according to no less an expert than Jesse Jackson.

Also he is only half black. I guess you could call him a HALFrican-American.
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Old 11-22-2008, 14:28   #35
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benn - first of all, i am not commissioned yet. I am still a cadet. i commission in May 09. branched ordnance.


if your post is factual then explain this... the bourgeoise do hire the workers. yes. however, they hire him for the LOWEST possible amount to sustain his ability to merely survive. they are NOT looking out for him and sustaining his work, as they will surely fire him and hire someone else who will work for less. this is a crime. the bourgeoise that exists today is solely responsible for the hiring and continual hiring of the illegals. now we are in a terrible situation bc our economy depends on this ILLEGAL labor so much so that, one, it is physically IMPOSSIBLE to remove illegals from this nation....our army and all the king's men couldnt expel them from this country if they tried. and secondly, the reason they have to come here ILLEGALLY is solidified in the procurement of the capitalists (bourgeoise) continual disregard for our laws by hiring this illegal working class. you can call this Marxist or Marxism all you want SGT, but the truth therein remains.

Obama's race is the LAST reason i voted for him. any black that voted for him solely on his race, is as dumb as any fool who voted for hillary bc she is a female. both are equally foolish. however, people are going to vote based on their own reasoning and justify it there no matter how torn asunder their reasoning may be. i voted for Obama because i think he has better plans for this nation. i think he is right when he says we need to make sure that more people have wealth or attain "wealth" in this nation. capitalism is not the reason i have everything i have been blessed with in this life. my parents who are hard working, lower middle class people, are the reason. they have taught in public school systems and worked for delta airlines for over 30 years and sustained this, thank God, by being hard working people and via the unions they belong to as well. (though the unions have become the capitalist entities they were built to be the antithesis of in many ways - though that is the subject of another debate all together)

also sgt, you arent abreast of the angst of people ON THIS FORUM that Obama is black? where have you been? there are NUMEROUS threads with postings about Obama being black, not being able to be trusted, socialist, etc.. he has received more death threats (not on this forum) than any other President elect in history. people that do this kind of thing are the ones that blog was referenced towards. it is awful that people would ever say such terrible things about our new President, regardless of who he is.

and i have news for you sgt, people dont have to TRY to fail in this nation. some people choose NOT to work and they are morons that abuse the system. my father losts 45,000 in various mutual funds that he had accrued money in over the past 11 years, just in this past year!!! some people say bad investing, etc... well that is false. my father chose to invest in mutual funds because they are safer than just investing the $ in other stock, yet he still lost... big time. he is not alone. far many more americans have felt the realities of a Republican led nation for the past 8 years FAR WORSE than my father who have served this nation valiantly in Vietnam. predatory loans lenders, corporate capitalists, etc, have all preyed upon people and set them up for failure, knowing full well, that they cant afford the payments, etc. government regulation should exist to see that these PRIVATE corporations dont do these things.

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Old 11-22-2008, 17:05   #36
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I did read what you say, but it does not make any sense.
You read into what I said. And we disagree. I simply do not want to be taxed more then the wealthy. You think that would cause some sort of calamity. We disagree. I truely wish it was as simple as you say. We have had "trickle down" economics for a long time. We are futher in debt then we ever have been. You try make it all sound so simple. The reality is very different. I have never said I am for a unfair burden on the wealthy. Of course I don't consider them paying the same % tax I pay unfair.
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Old 11-22-2008, 17:10   #37
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NOBODY IN THIS COUNTRY PAYS TAXES UNTIL THEY MAKE AROUND $60,000. Look it up. go to www.irs.gov and see for yourself.
Thats BS. Total BS. What do you freaking make for a living to believe that BS.
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Old 11-22-2008, 17:15   #38
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Year 2008 income brackets and tax rates
Marginal Tax Rate Single Married Filing Jointly or Qualified Widow(er) Married Filing Separately Head of Household
10% $0 – $8,025 $0 – $16,050 $0 – $8,025 $0 – $11,450
15% $8,026 – $32,550 $16,051 – $65,100 $8,026 – $32,550 $11,451 – $43,650
25% $32,551 – $78,850 $65,101 – $131,450 $32,551 – $65,725 $43,651 – $112,650
28% $78,851 – $164,550 $131,451 – $200,300 $65,726 – $100,150 $112,651 – $182,400
33% $164,551 – $357,700 $200,301 – $357,700 $100,151 – $178,850 $182,401 – $357,700
35% $357,701+ $357,701+ $178,851+ $357,701+


[edit] Year 2009 Income Brackets and Tax Rates
Marginal Tax Rate[1] Single Married Filing Jointly or Qualified Widow(er) Married Filing Separately Head of Household
10% $0 – $8,350 $0 – $16,700 $0 – $8,350 $0 – $11,950
15% $8,351– $33,950 $16,701 – $67,900 $8,351 – $33,950 $11,951 – $45,500
25% $33,951 – $82,250 $67,901 – $137,050 $33,951 – $68,525 $45,551 – $117,450
28% $82,251 – $171,550 $137,051 – $208,850 $68,525 – $104,425 $117,451 – $190,200
33% $171,551 – $372,950 $208,851 – $372,950 $104,426 – $186,475 $190,201 - $372,950
35% $372,951+ $372,951+ $186,476+ $372,951+

It hard to read posted on a forum but just go to this link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_..._United_States
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Old 11-22-2008, 17:55   #39
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[QUOTE=Colorado4Wheel;11699018


Never said they should be taxed at a higher rate. I would be happy if they were taxed at the same rate as me. If you had read what I said you would know that I just don't want them paying less then I am as a %.[/QUOTE]


Flat tax is the only way to do that....they won't get rid of the IRS though.
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Old 11-22-2008, 18:41   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel View Post
Year 2008 income brackets and tax rates
Marginal Tax Rate Single Married Filing Jointly or Qualified Widow(er) Married Filing Separately Head of Household
10% $0 $8,025 $0 $16,050 $0 $8,025 $0 $11,450
15% $8,026 $32,550 $16,051 $65,100 $8,026 $32,550 $11,451 $43,650
25% $32,551 $78,850 $65,101 $131,450 $32,551 $65,725 $43,651 $112,650
28% $78,851 $164,550 $131,451 $200,300 $65,726 $100,150 $112,651 $182,400
33% $164,551 $357,700 $200,301 $357,700 $100,151 $178,850 $182,401 $357,700
35% $357,701+ $357,701+ $178,851+ $357,701+


[edit] Year 2009 Income Brackets and Tax Rates
Marginal Tax Rate[1] Single Married Filing Jointly or Qualified Widow(er) Married Filing Separately Head of Household
10% $0 $8,350 $0 $16,700 $0 $8,350 $0 $11,950
15% $8,351 $33,950 $16,701 $67,900 $8,351 $33,950 $11,951 $45,500
25% $33,951 $82,250 $67,901 $137,050 $33,951 $68,525 $45,551 $117,450
28% $82,251 $171,550 $137,051 $208,850 $68,525 $104,425 $117,451 $190,200
33% $171,551 $372,950 $208,851 $372,950 $104,426 $186,475 $190,201 - $372,950
35% $372,951+ $372,951+ $186,476+ $372,951+

It hard to read posted on a forum but just go to this link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_..._United_States
Brilliant. You went to Wikipedia for "facts" I go to wikipedia if I need to know about a plant or some other trivial thing that I do not have to verify. ANYBODY can join wiki and post something.

Now, go to the IRS website and look up WHAT PEOPLE ACTUALLY PAY.

Here is the link: http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/index.html now look up the spreadsheet for Individual Income Tax and the other one that is called Personal Wealth. It's in the middle of the page.

I could care less what tax bracket percentage somebody falls into. We give people tax breaks based on adjusted gross income. If you make $35,000 or so per year, not only will you get back every penny you pay in federal income taxes, you will get more than you put in back. Earned income credit is one great form of social welfare where we give people money that they did not earn.

When Soldiers deploy to a combat zone no federal income taxes are withheld. At the end of the year that Soldier will have an adjusted gross income of $0. Because he did work and has a wife and child (dependents) he will qualify for a huge refund even though he paid NOTHING in taxes.

I know, it happened to me last year.

The same thing will happen MILLIONS OF TIMES this tax season to people who are actually working.

Why don't we get rid of earned income credit and stop adjusting income and tax everybody at the same rate? Because politicians can't play calss warfare by using the tax code. Even though there are millions of people out there who THINK they pay taxes, they do not, as PROVEN by the IRS website.

Once we add up how many kids somebody has, if they are blind, a member of the clergy, leased a car for their business, paid state taxes, lost money on the sale of a house etc, then we get to the numbers in the spreadsheet. Adjusted gross income.

You will notice that on one of the sheets it CLEARLY states that the top 50% of wage earners pay 93% of all taxes collested by the federal government. 50% is about as "middle" in middle class as you can get.

Now look at the spreadsheet that talks about Size of adjusted gross income. Find your tax bracket and follow it across. You see a whole bunch of ZEROES or low numbers (indicating how much money the government got). Note that if people are paying with low adjusted gross incomes it is usually due to capital gains. This holds true at anything much above 15%. Notice that one column has a number for returns taxed at that rate and the one next to it show how much tax was collected. Pretty paltry huh?

Now this part is REALLY IMPORTANT so do NOT take my word for it. Check it out on the IRS spreadsheet. It will say "Total Income Tax Share (Percentage) on the left column of the spreadsheet The TOP 1% of WAGE EARNERS, those making MORE THAN $1 MILLION PER YEAR PAY 39% OF ALL TAXES COLLECTED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

Now note (on the same spreadsheet) that the bottom 40% of wage earners PAY NO TAXES.

This isn't some theory that I made up. It is fact. You can disagree with me all you like, but you can not argue facts with the people who are collecting the money.

I always hear bitter liberals talk about loopholes for the "rich". Those aren't loopholes. That is the tax code. We give businesses tax breaks in the hope that they reinvest in the business and expand it.

The government has never and will never produce any wealth. Only the free market when left alone does that.

The young cadet on here is a perfect example of college level mind control. You can tell from his posts that he has ZERO life experience and is opining near quotes from Marx.

I have no problem with liberals. I have a really good friend who is about as socially liberal as you can get. He has looked at these numbers from the IRS and takes them as fact. He still has the misguided opinion that rich people should give more of their money away to those who are not so fortunate, but he acknowledges that wealthy people do in fact pay taxes.

Study who really pays taxes according to the IRS. Listening to a politician talk about taxes is foolish.

Tax season is coming up. Take your income and compare it to the chart. Note how much was taken in taxes (federal that is) and then subtract your refund from that number. That is what you paid, or did not pay in taxes last year. You may be surprised how much or little you pay.

Now realize that a good portion of that money you worked hard for and the government took is going to people who failed to make an attempt at success. ANYBODY can be successful in this country. All it takes is a little bit of effort and desire.
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Old 11-22-2008, 19:03   #41
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benn - first of all, i am not commissioned yet. I am still a cadet. i commission in May 09. branched ordnance.


if your post is factual then explain this... the bourgeoise do hire the workers. yes. however, they hire him for the LOWEST possible amount to sustain his ability to merely survive. they are NOT looking out for him and sustaining his work, as they will surely fire him and hire someone else who will work for less. this is a crime. the bourgeoise that exists today is solely responsible for the hiring and continual hiring of the illegals. now we are in a terrible situation bc our economy depends on this ILLEGAL labor so much so that, one, it is physically IMPOSSIBLE to remove illegals from this nation....our army and all the king's men couldnt expel them from this country if they tried. and secondly, the reason they have to come here ILLEGALLY is solidified in the procurement of the capitalists (bourgeoise) continual disregard for our laws by hiring this illegal working class. you can call this Marxist or Marxism all you want SGT, but the truth therein remains.

Obama's race is the LAST reason i voted for him. any black that voted for him solely on his race, is as dumb as any fool who voted for hillary bc she is a female. both are equally foolish. however, people are going to vote based on their own reasoning and justify it there no matter how torn asunder their reasoning may be. i voted for Obama because i think he has better plans for this nation. i think he is right when he says we need to make sure that more people have wealth or attain "wealth" in this nation. capitalism is not the reason i have everything i have been blessed with in this life. my parents who are hard working, lower middle class people, are the reason. they have taught in public school systems and worked for delta airlines for over 30 years and sustained this, thank God, by being hard working people and via the unions they belong to as well. (though the unions have become the capitalist entities they were built to be the antithesis of in many ways - though that is the subject of another debate all together)

also sgt, you arent abreast of the angst of people ON THIS FORUM that Obama is black? where have you been? there are NUMEROUS threads with postings about Obama being black, not being able to be trusted, socialist, etc.. he has received more death threats (not on this forum) than any other President elect in history. people that do this kind of thing are the ones that blog was referenced towards. it is awful that people would ever say such terrible things about our new President, regardless of who he is.

and i have news for you sgt, people dont have to TRY to fail in this nation. some people choose NOT to work and they are morons that abuse the system. my father losts 45,000 in various mutual funds that he had accrued money in over the past 11 years, just in this past year!!! some people say bad investing, etc... well that is false. my father chose to invest in mutual funds because they are safer than just investing the $ in other stock, yet he still lost... big time. he is not alone. far many more americans have felt the realities of a Republican led nation for the past 8 years FAR WORSE than my father who have served this nation valiantly in Vietnam. predatory loans lenders, corporate capitalists, etc, have all preyed upon people and set them up for failure, knowing full well, that they cant afford the payments, etc. government regulation should exist to see that these PRIVATE corporations dont do these things.
Cadet,

Winston Churchill once said, "If at 20 you are not a liberal you do not have a heart. At 40 if you are not conservative you do not have a brain".

Hopefully you live long enough to get some life experience that will let you think for yourself, because clearly, you are not.

You seem to think that Republicans have been running things for the last 8 years. The white house yes, but both houses of congress have been controlled by democrats for a while now. Put down the copy of Marx and pick up the constitution. Notice that CONGRESS controls the budget, not the President.

My condolences to your father. I lost about $28,000 since August. Your point is what? President Bush did it?

The predatory lenders you mention were forced to lend money to minorities that would not qualify for a loan if the government did not force banks to make the loans. As Government Sponsored Enterprises, Fannie May and Freddie Mac gave the loans and then sold them. The commercial banks could not pay the loans because 16% of the new homeowners never made the first payment. By the way, President Bush tried to get some oversight on this program, but the DEMOCRAT controlled congress stopped it.

Here is a pretty cool link that will give you a starting point to do what I do.....research everything on my own. I only believe myself. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiEWCnpNnBQ Now, I do not put much stock in YouTube or anything on the internet, but being a young, impressionable, recently indoctrinated college student, I figured this would get you thinking.

Notice that all of the people praising Fannie and Freddy are DEMOCRATS. Weird huh?

Also because you are a "twenty-something" check out this link for a definition of a GSE. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governm...red_enterprise

Then check out this link to understand sub prime lending: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub_prime

Both of these are wikipedia sites, so you need to do your own homework. Wiki is notoriously inaccurate.

To be a liberal you just have to feel compassionate about people or an issue. To vote for a democrat you have to be a victim in some way. Screwed over by the man somehow.

Hopefully your eyes get openedand you start to think for yourself. Sound bites and liberal professors are not the answer.
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Old 11-22-2008, 19:15   #42
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You read into what I said. And we disagree. I simply do not want to be taxed more then the wealthy. You think that would cause some sort of calamity. We disagree. I truely wish it was as simple as you say. We have had "trickle down" economics for a long time. We are futher in debt then we ever have been. You try make it all sound so simple. The reality is very different. I have never said I am for a unfair burden on the wealthy. Of course I don't consider them paying the same % tax I pay unfair.
We are not in debt because of the tax system. We are in debt because our spending is out of control. Congressional earmarks (Pork) costs us BILLIONS along with the social programs for lazy people who do not contribute to society.

In his entire Senate Career John McCain never added one penny to a bill as an earmark.

Obama added about $1 MILLION for every day that he served as a U.S. Senator.

Those are also facts you can look up.

You say you are not for an unfair burden on the wealthy, but if you have looked at the IRS spreadsheets you would know that is exactly what we have.

You voted for Obama hoping for a tax cut without even knowing for sure if you pay any taxes or not. I'm not trying to be insulting, but you obviously did not research your decision through the IRS.

So, who is more responsible for the fiscal trouble we are in now? The Democrats who forced sub prime loans onto banks and made BILLIONS in earmarks, or the Republicans who fought against sub prime and had relatively few earmarks?
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Old 11-22-2008, 22:18   #43
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SGT - I am not a victim. I voted for a Democrat because I think they have better plans for this nation. Thats all there is to that. Its not because Obama is half black, etc..

So liberal professors are .... uneducated?? because of their status of "liberal"??? I am confused.. if your quote by Winston is correct then what is to be said of all the highly intellectual professors on the college campuses, nationwide? Surely they arent ALL ...dumb...
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Old 11-22-2008, 22:20   #44
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... oh yea, and the way you speak about the Dems being responsible for the problems since they have had control of the Congress....

The Congress cant get anything done because the executive branch headed by yours truly, W, hasnt allowed anything to become official. He and his cohorts have stonewalled and blocked anything the Dems have put up. Oh but my dear friend, how things are about to change.. If Franken pulls out and beats Norm Coleman, as he is on track to, we will have a fillibuster proof Congress. Imagine the things we will be able to get passed then!!
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Old 11-22-2008, 22:46   #45
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... oh yea, and the way you speak about the Dems being responsible for the problems since they have had control of the Congress....

The Congress cant get anything done because the executive branch headed by yours truly, W, hasnt allowed anything to become official. He and his cohorts have stonewalled and blocked anything the Dems have put up. Oh but my dear friend, how things are about to change.. If Franken pulls out and beats Norm Coleman, as he is on track to, we will have a fillibuster proof Congress. Imagine the things we will be able to get passed then!!
eduction does not equal smart. You are about to find that out when you go on active duty. IF you really knew what you were talking about you would not make such ignorant statements like, "...He and his cohorts have stonewalled and blocked anything the Dems have put up".

I could give you example after example about Liberals doing nothing. No energy plan etc. They did manage to pass a higher minimum wage that does nothing to improve the quality of life for poor people.

That has to be the most retarded thing I have heard since I heard a 2LT say, "Well, in my experience"

If ignorance truly is bliss then you must be the happiest idiot on the planet.

Good luck in your short career.
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Old 11-22-2008, 23:17   #46
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eduction does not equal smart. You are about to find that out when you go on active duty. IF you really knew what you were talking about you would not make such ignorant statements like, "...He and his cohorts have stonewalled and blocked anything the Dems have put up".

I could give you example after example about Liberals doing nothing. No energy plan etc. They did manage to pass a higher minimum wage that does nothing to improve the quality of life for poor people.

That has to be the most retarded thing I have heard since I heard a 2LT say, "Well, in my experience"

If ignorance truly is bliss then you must be the happiest idiot on the planet.

Good luck in your short career.

SGM, you shouldnt use such harsh language. I understand you feel strongly about your convictions, however, for you to assume that I will have a "short" career b/c i have Democratic political beliefs, is foolish. And again SGM - I am NOT a 2LT.
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Old 11-22-2008, 23:20   #47
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eduction does not equal smart. You are about to find that out when you go on active duty. IF you really knew what you were talking about you would not make such ignorant statements like, "...He and his cohorts have stonewalled and blocked anything the Dems have put up".

I could give you example after example about Liberals doing nothing. No energy plan etc. They did manage to pass a higher minimum wage that does nothing to improve the quality of life for poor people.

That has to be the most retarded thing I have heard since I heard a 2LT say, "Well, in my experience"

If ignorance truly is bliss then you must be the happiest idiot on the planet.

Good luck in your short career.
And for the record, I have NEVER stated ANYTHING disrespectful about GW Bush, other than what is factual. He has NOT worked with the Democratic Congress. He DOES have the LOWEST approval rating of ANY American President in history. Those are just facts SGM..Sometimes they arent pretty.
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Old 11-23-2008, 10:16   #48
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Brilliant. You went to Wikipedia for "facts" I go to wikipedia if I need to know about a plant or some other trivial thing that I do not have to verify. ANYBODY can join wiki and post something.

Now, go to the IRS website and look up WHAT PEOPLE ACTUALLY PAY.

Here is the link: http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/index.html now look up the spreadsheet for Individual Income Tax and the other one that is called Personal Wealth. It's in the middle of the page.
All your doing is posting a link to a page with a bunch of links to other pages. Post the direct link. I looked and did not find what you are talking about. I don't have time to click through to every link either. So if you found it, post it.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040a.pdf

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040ez.pdf

For what you said to be true you would have to come up with 60K in standard deductions. The standard deduction was $5450, standard exemption is $3500 (alls from the EZ forum). Thats a whopping $8950. I know if all my years I have never found a way to get $60K worth of deductions.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/05in02ar.xls

Tax year 05 (the most recent they have posted). Colume CC and CD listed as "Tax due at time of filing"

People in the 1-5000 paid 300,000+ as a group. I thought they paid/owed nothing. It just goes up from there of course.
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Old 11-23-2008, 13:09   #49
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All your doing is posting a link to a page with a bunch of links to other pages. Post the direct link. I looked and did not find what you are talking about. I don't have time to click through to every link either. So if you found it, post it.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040a.pdf

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040ez.pdf

For what you said to be true you would have to come up with 60K in standard deductions. The standard deduction was $5450, standard exemption is $3500 (alls from the EZ forum). Thats a whopping $8950. I know if all my years I have never found a way to get $60K worth of deductions.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/05in02ar.xls

Tax year 05 (the most recent they have posted). Colume CC and CD listed as "Tax due at time of filing"

People in the 1-5000 paid 300,000+ as a group. I thought they paid/owed nothing. It just goes up from there of course.
If you don't have the time to click on every link, I suggest you go back and read the post I made where I referenced where you could find the spreadsheet on the page. I even told you the name of the sheet.

You are exactly what most politicians want; an uninformed voter. Obama played his class warfare like a master musician, and many people fell for it. Some of them are having second thought and HOPING that they are wrong. I mean did you REALLY believe that Obama could POSSIBLY come up with $1.3 TRILLION in new proposed spending by only raising taxes on 5% of Americans? Seriously?

Did you forget Clinton running on tax cuts, then coming on TV saying that he had worked harder in the first 100 days in office, but he was going to have to raise taxes? Remember that.

There is no way I can convince you that you are wrong about who pays taxes.

How about this. When you are ready to file your taxes, get a blank tax return form and reduce your personal income by whatever percentage necessary to lower your income (before taxes) to $30,000. Now reduce federal withholding by the same percentage. You just became a member of that $30,000 tax bracket. Now figure out how much tax you owe using the same number of dependents etc. You are going to find that you get back, more than you "paid". I know this for a fact, because I did my sister-in-law's taxes for her last year. Money that I EARNED went to her in the form of a refund.

Now, take that 1040, set it on your desk and argue with it.

Look a little closer. Those people in the lower income brackets are paying capital gains tax. I have no idea where you are coming up with your numbers for deductions though.
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Old 11-23-2008, 15:37   #50
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If you don't have the time to click on every link, I suggest you go back and read the post I made where I referenced where you could find the spreadsheet on the page. I even told you the name of the sheet.

You are exactly what most politicians want; an uninformed voter. Obama played his class warfare like a master musician, and many people fell for it. Some of them are having second thought and HOPING that they are wrong. I mean did you REALLY believe that Obama could POSSIBLY come up with $1.3 TRILLION in new proposed spending by only raising taxes on 5% of Americans? Seriously?

Did you forget Clinton running on tax cuts, then coming on TV saying that he had worked harder in the first 100 days in office, but he was going to have to raise taxes? Remember that.

There is no way I can convince you that you are wrong about who pays taxes.

How about this. When you are ready to file your taxes, get a blank tax return form and reduce your personal income by whatever percentage necessary to lower your income (before taxes) to $30,000. Now reduce federal withholding by the same percentage. You just became a member of that $30,000 tax bracket. Now figure out how much tax you owe using the same number of dependents etc. You are going to find that you get back, more than you "paid". I know this for a fact, because I did my sister-in-law's taxes for her last year. Money that I EARNED went to her in the form of a refund.

Now, take that 1040, set it on your desk and argue with it.

Look a little closer. Those people in the lower income brackets are paying capital gains tax. I have no idea where you are coming up with your numbers for deductions though.

You don't answer any of my statements directly. I show you a IRS spreedsheet showing the taxes people pay in each bracket and you still don't believe it. FYI, The numbers for deductins are right on the 1040 form. I know, that I know, that I pay taxes when I make under 60K. I have written a check for $12K one year. You can argue about deductions all you want. My reality is what I get on my taxes every year. And the accountants I use are not idiots, and many have gone back to recheck previous years just to see if there are any deductions I could have taken. I am done argueing with you. You clearly think you know everything so it's pointless.

Edit: I just realized I am arguing with someone who doesn't even know where to find the standard deductions for income on his tax forms. And is arguing about Clintion for some reasone, Never mentiond him myself. He also won't produce the supposed table that shows no one making under 60K a year pays taxes.
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