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Old 11-16-2008, 16:10   #81
citori59
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I really don't have a problem for the real Obama supporters that truly believe in him and his politics. I have a problem for all the morons that voted for Obama because they wanted change. Didn't the Germans do that in 1933?
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Old 11-16-2008, 16:14   #82
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I really don't have a problem for the real Obama supporters that truly believe in him and his politics. I have a problem for all the morons that voted for Obama because they wanted change. Didn't the Germans do that in 1933?

Or the ones who voted for Obama becuase they hated Bush
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Old 11-16-2008, 16:20   #83
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McCain = more Bush policies. He voted with the Bush agenda 94% of the time. Change??? Give me a break.
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Old 11-16-2008, 17:43   #84
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Income tax, personal property tax, gun control, the dept. of education, the federal reserve, NAFTA...and that's without taking a breath.
Income tax paid for the Cival War, and every war after that. Paid our roads and usered us into the 21st century. With out income taxes we would probably all be speaking German right now.
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Old 11-16-2008, 18:53   #85
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Income tax paid for the Cival War, and every war after that. Paid our roads and usered us into the 21st century. With out income taxes we would probably all be speaking German right now.
Clearly some tax is needed for infrastructure, national defense and LIMITED social programs (limited to a select few programs that "help people help themselves") are needed, but not a big nanny state government. I am also a believer that the so called "progressive" income tax is a net negative to the economy. I believe in a consumption tax, I don't believe you should be taxed when you make money, or at the very least, a flat tax rate, because it promotes hard work by not penalizing it.
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Old 11-16-2008, 21:13   #86
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So then who gets to decide how much is too much? Oh, we already answered that question; it's in the constitution and the Amendment 19 of that Constitution.

I do agree a flat tax would be great, but it would also eliminate a lot of tax breaks that some people really need. It's all flawed. It's really flawed when people making Billion + every year pay less percent wise then we do. I would be fine with a flat tax if it actually meant the rich paid it just like I did.
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Old 11-17-2008, 21:59   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PAGunner View Post
Clearly some tax is needed for infrastructure, national defense and LIMITED social programs (limited to a select few programs that "help people help themselves") are needed, but not a big nanny state government. I am also a believer that the so called "progressive" income tax is a net negative to the economy. I believe in a consumption tax, I don't believe you should be taxed when you make money, or at the very least, a flat tax rate, because it promotes hard work by not penalizing it.
though i disagree PAGunner, I respect this post. Well-stated and substantiated as well sir.
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Old 11-18-2008, 08:34   #88
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Originally Posted by PAGunner View Post
Clearly some tax is needed for infrastructure, national defense and LIMITED social programs (limited to a select few programs that "help people help themselves") are needed, but not a big nanny state government. I am also a believer that the so called "progressive" income tax is a net negative to the economy. I believe in a consumption tax, I don't believe you should be taxed when you make money, or at the very least, a flat tax rate, because it promotes hard work by not penalizing it.


I am with you on the flat tax. If I were to implement it, I would have a certain standard exemption. Like, no tax on the first 25k for everyone. Otherwise no credits, deductions, etc. Make the system simple and have it effect everyone equally.

I don't like the consumption tax because it encourages people to hide their money away and would mean that the poor were pay a lot more in proportion to the rich. I prefer it to be an even percentage.
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Old 11-18-2008, 13:47   #89
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Now - however, it is time to rally behind the American President to be and support him, regardless of feelings pro or con for this man. He IS our President to be and if we become one people and support him, while holding him accountable, I think we will see positive things in this nation.
for all you that hate obama, didnt vote for him, dont believe in him... blah, blah, blah...
i know you all still love this country and want to see her flourish once again. you cannot ignor the plight we as a country are in right now (before obama was elected).
meshmdz's quote above is the most insightful thing i've read on here. its a shame some people only want to degrade and ridicule the man instead of thinking of way to help support him, his presidency and support this country.
obama winning this election represents everything that is great about this country. the fact that a minority can flourish, work hard and become the leader of the greatest nation ever is an amazing feat and is truely the american dream.
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Old 11-18-2008, 18:57   #90
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Sorry, but I will not rally behind the president-elect, and I do feel as much hatred for him (and the other liberals in control) as I have ever felt....for what they want to do. and, Bush and McCain have not performed as conservatives....I don't know what they think they are.

My dilemma, through the Clinton years and for the next four is based in an oath I took decades ago: "I, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to law and regulations. So help me God."

What does one do when they feel that the President is an enemy of the Constitution?
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Old 11-18-2008, 19:54   #91
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Keith, hatred is a terrible thing. How can you hate an American President that wants to do what is best for the nation? If you dont agree with his stances on a few things, I understans, but to claim hatred for him is over the top IMO.
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Old 11-18-2008, 21:47   #92
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Keith, hatred is a terrible thing. How can you hate an American President that wants to do what is best for the nation? If you dont agree with his stances on a few things, I understans, but to claim hatred for him is over the top IMO.
Problem is, he doesn't want to do what is best for the nation, he wants to do what is best for him. He is a socialist. Other countries who practice socialist ideals have shown it doesn't work, and now we get to prove it again.
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Old 11-19-2008, 09:01   #93
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

"Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and the creation of an egalitarian society"

"Egalitarianism (derived from the French word égal, meaning equal) is a political doctrine that holds that all people should be treated as equals and have the same political, economic, social, and civil rights.[1] Generally it applies to being held equal under the law and society at large. In actual practice, one may be considered an egalitarian in most areas listed above, even if not subscribing to equality in every possible area of individual difference."


So when has Barack advocated

state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

Don't tell me the "Bail Out". That was a funding not "collective ownership" Even if you want to twist it into Socialism then you can do the same for nearly any social program in America.


And when has Barack stated he wants "egalitarian society". A society where we have the "masses" treated all the same. Same basic income, etc. It's not a "redistribution" argument either. Under Republicans we have the rich paying less taxes percent wise then the average person. For instance the wall street super rich get to pay 10-15% on the 1 Billion (YES A "B") where I get to pay 33% on my income.

The right wing media is twisting things up and you guys are buying it all.
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Old 11-19-2008, 09:07   #94
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The right wing media is twisting things up and you guys are buying it all.
But the mainstream media is all socialists! The only honest source of news Rush and similar talk radio. I mean, come on, the big budget MSM has no way of knowing what is actually going on, plus they all have higher educations (YUK!!!).

I want my news fabricated, exaggerated, and put into words that even a second grader can get angry at!

Who cares about the issues if someone has a funny name?

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Old 11-19-2008, 09:11   #95
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And please, please don't try and make the argument that Social Programs are Socialism. It's just not the same thing. Not even close. The Bailouts etc. are attempts at Social programs to prevent a major economic problem. Trust me I understand if you don't agree with these things. Socialism is a very different thing and the Constitution would not allow real Socialism. But it does allow Social Programs under section 8 or the Constitution called "The Enumerated Powers". Thats how we ended up with Social Security and many other federal programs that are supposed to help the people. My argument is not "for" these programs. Just that the constitution and its interpetation over time has supported the right of the Federal goverment to do these things.
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Old 11-19-2008, 09:12   #96
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But the mainstream media is all socialists! The only honest source of news Rush and similar talk radio. I mean, come on, the big budget MSM has no way of knowing what is actually going on, plus they all have higher educations (YUK!!!).
If you only want to listen to things that support you and your current thinking then listen to FOX. If you want to try and understand why others might believe something different then listen to CNN and others. They have you just were they want you if you don't listen to anything but one source for your information.

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, plus they all have higher educations (YUK!!!).
You have got to be kidding me. Oh, lets stay ignorant. Don't learn, that would be bad and not help anyone get ahead. Not help our country succeed. That is just crazy.
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Old 11-19-2008, 09:32   #97
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If you only want to listen to things that support you and your current thinking then listen to FOX. If you want to try and understand why others might believe something different then listen to CNN and others. They have you just were they want you if you don't listen to anything but one source for your information.



You have got to be kidding me. Oh, lets stay ignorant. Don't learn, that would be bad and not help anyone get ahead. Not help our country succeed. That is just crazy.

Hehehe. I am on your side and I was joking. They need a sarcasm font on here.
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Old 11-19-2008, 10:26   #98
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Well, I was a little upset. I had just noticed they deleted the thread about Montana suceeding from the Union. After I posted some good info about the Constitution, Montana's statehood, Amendments, etc. At this point I think I am done with these discussions. If you can't even talk about History and the Constitution then whats the point.
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Old 11-19-2008, 10:28   #99
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Well, I was a little upset. I had just noticed they deleted the thread about Montana suceeding from the Union. After I posted some good info about the Constitution, Montana's statehood, Amendments, etc. At this point I think I am done with these discussions. If you can't even talk about History and the Constitution then whats the point.
I had to distance myself for a bit after the election. But it's been getting better. People are turning the crazy down a notch or two. Sorry about the unpleasantness you've had.
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Old 11-19-2008, 11:53   #100
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barack does want what is best for this nation. if you dont believe so, you are wrong. all american presidents want what hey think is best for this nation... well except for my GW... I mean he hasnt really done anything for anyone of my ilk.

before you bash socialism... think about all the wonderful things we have in this nation that are a form of socialism... a postal service, police forces, ambulances, firemen, teachers, social workers, etc... oh yea and social security.. but yea you dont wanna admit that's just NOT american right???? well hopefully we can have some form of socialism in this nation because government regulation is a must... just look at the past 8 years and what dereg has done for us..
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